Do they not teach basic math anymore.

[snowman]

[snowman]

Dos dollars, Naw its not real and I can't count that high. And not only that I never heard of Jefferson.

The sad thing is that these morons (the teachers) want to blame Bush for their failures. Its all the no child left behind acts fault.

[yellowline]

Originally posted by 930addict
Our infrastructure is already established. It is not cost effective for U.S. companies to switch to, say, smart visa cards that are so popular in Europe and Asia. High speed Internet over cell phones has been available in Europe for quite some time but here it is just starting to make an appearance. In South Korea, 60% of all households get their TV signal from broadband Internet connections. Necessity is the mother of invention. If we don’t need a new credit card system, a new cellular infrastructure, a new broadcast technology or to go to the moon, then what are supposed to invent? I know there’s always something but think about it. Our nation does have it all – thus the complacency.

We also are much larger than any of those nations except China. I don't think rural mainland China has great infrastructure if something like 700 million Chinese make less than $1,000 a year.

If we had a high tax rate and an area the size of Texas, I'm sure we could also afford to keep it well maintained and enjoy new technology. I think that's part of the problem- the return from sparsely populated areas like Nebraska and Wyoming don't justify the investment for private industry.

I believe we need to see changes in the market before you'll see folks get back into the sciences and mathematics. I have a degree in Civil Engineering, and one reason I am not currently in the field is low pay. Even after climbing the ladder, the pay would not grow significatnly, despite having far greater responsibility and longer hours.

When engineers are in demand, I would hope to see wages raised. Of course, the other option is having wages for lesser jobs ( I will lump bidness, management, etc in this class) decrease. It disturbs me to see some jackoff make 6 figure incomes because he's at good pimping mortgages. Of course, money isn't everything. I knew Civil Engineering was the bottom rung in engineering (regarding pay, difficulty, and sophistication).

Please tell me more. I'm interested in going for CE, and not for any superficial reason like money. I enjoy trying to improve the physical world. I thought it was a secure profession that paid okay, which satisfies me if I'll enjoy the work.

Oh, and I do think they should reissue $2 bills or coins here. In Europe, they were very useful.

[930addict]

The big advantage that these developing countries have is that they do not have an established infrastructure as we do. So they are going from nothing to state-of-the-art. Implementing these new techonologies presents other challenges, which requires more specialized workers. Thus the draw for the highly educated. I have a friend who moved to China for a couple of years and worked for Lay's Potato Chips. She is now attending Wharton School of Business. When she's done she's going back to China to cash in on their booming economy.

[dhoward]

Originally posted by 930addict
The big advantage that these developing countries have is that they do not have an established infrastructure as we do. So they are going from nothing to state-of-the-art. Implementing these new techonologies presents other challenges, which requires more specialized workers. Thus the draw for the highly educated. I have a friend who moved to China for a couple of years and worked for Lay's Potato Chips. She is now attending Wharton School of Business. When she's done she's going back to China to cash in on their booming economy.

As an aside, implementing an infrastucture where none existed before, is actually easier, because there is no legacy topology with which it must co-exist....
edit: sorry. drinking. you already said that...I'm a twit...

[snowman]

We have no real problem in the US. We have the developing ruling class, the ones that went to private school, and the developing surf class, the ones that took surfing in public school. No wait. Its anyone that went to public school.

[masraum]

Originally posted by yellowline
Oh, and I do think they should reissue $2 bills or coins here. In Europe, they were very useful.

They don't need to reissue 2 dollar bills. They have tons from the '95 printing. Just go to the bank and tell them that you want them.

When I worked at the topless bar a few years back the managers had a couple of hundred dollars worth of them in every drawer. The theory was that if we had a bunch of 2 dollar bills floating around the club that the employees would get them for tips.

And, of course, we have plenty fo dollar coins running around for the asking, the sakajewea, or something like that.

[ianc]

What is it they say, 20 years ago American kids were near the best in the world at math, now they're not in the top 20?

It's too expensive to leave kids back a grade if they don't cut it, and the teachers don't like it, so just push 'em up and let's get on with it...

ianc

[Evans, Marv]

Lots of good thinking here. I wish the population in general could have this depth of insight. I retired from the education system, so I could rant on for hours. IANC, it's not the teachers who don't like to hold the kids back, it's the administration. If they have kids held back, it looks bad for their statistics, hence all proceed to the next grade.
It all starts at the beginning. My wife teaches first grade. Yearly she has one to three kids that arrive in her class not performing to grade level. She is able to bring some up to level. Others just don't have what it takes, are behind on the maturity curve, or some other thing which would make them benefit from staying in first grade another year. She goes through all of the SSTs and other special procedures, but at the end of the year that kid goes on to the next grade.
I watched that also for years. The poor kids never catch up, and as years go by, they are more lost and problematic. This isn't everything, but it's one contributing factor to the whole picture.
This whole thing of making sure everyone has to (appear to) suceed is really bad.

[ianc]

This whole thing of making sure everyone has to (appear to) suceed is really bad.

Yes; I totally agree here. Society feels in some way that it's wrong to admit there is a difference in the academic ability of a slower student. All students are created 'equal', right? PC strikes again, and it's really sand in the cogs...

ianc

[Otaku]

It's so bad that many businesses here can not find enough people to work because they either don't want to or they're to stupid.

Maybe it was just to early or a bad start? Hope so anyway. I'm not very good with math but I can do the basics in my head, they allow the use of calculators and computers way to often.

At my school (private) I have to keep working on things until I get them right, I am required to get an 80% or I fail. I am a year behind taking algebra 2 instead of pre calc (take it in senior year) but at least I am learning instead of just getting an A for showing up.

[snowman]

Kids used to be held back. Then the PC crowd thought it was the poor little kids ego that was damaged and consequently, when he was still screwing up in higher grades, they said it was because he was held back earlier!! Talk about circular reasoning.

Anyway its the PC crowds duty to MAKE everyone EQUAL. If you can't bring up the bottom, just bring down the top. Funny thing is that if you give a bunch of people the exact same resources to work with, several years later some will have squat to show for it and others will have made silk purses out of hogs ears or whatever. And thats after the PC crowd has stolen half of the sucessful ones work and given it to the unsucessful ones. They still only have squat to show for it.

Could it be some people are satisfied with having squat ? No because everyone still wants more. It seems to be that if you give some people a lump of coal, they will lose it, get cancer from it, use it rob a liquor store or somehow use it to produce a negative result. Others will warm their house, find a cure for cancer, or find other productive uses for it.

In other words, no matter how hard the PC crowd tries, some people will always be a drag on society, and others will be a plus. If we are to survive we must not let the PC crowd drag us all down to the lowest common denominator so we can all be EQUAL.

We need to put the very competent in their own class, where they can learn to compete and get better, lesser ones in a class with their peers, and people who just can't get it, well their own class where they can get special attentin and not drag down the high achievers, otherwise they can only bring down others with them as that is their main talent, bringing things down. Allaround its more FAIR than what we are dong now.,

[tswaney]

snowman,

I agree, mostly, with your final proposition regarding tracking students towards future goals, even though the current system does that to some extent. Example: you typically won't find the kids taking AP Chemistry, Physics, Calculus, AP Biology ending up as the fast food workforce, ditchdiggers... How early in life would you propose this segregation? Jr. High, Elem. School, High School? I am honestly interested.

I also agree with the concept of graduation being dependant upon testing so that certain standards are met. Are these standards to be determined by the Feds? the States? the local school boards?

I don't fully understand your postion on NCLB legislation, however. Earlier in this thread, you praise NCLB, yet in your last post you appear to say that not all students can achieve the standards. Specifically, your second, third and fourth paragraphs regarding the "PC crowd". I wouldn't have considered the proponents of NCLB to be "the PC crowd."

I am a product of public ed. Are you from a public or private ed. background? You may have already answered this and I missed it. If so, my apologies.

I too am unhappy about weakening curricular standards for any reason.

[snowman]

The current standards, set by no child, are so low, that everyone can pass them, they are almost meaningless.

Most children can be completely tracked by 8th grade, usually 3rd grade is enough for a 90% cut. However there should never be any barrier for a kid to "prove" himself at any time. By barrier I don't mean test, but rule or law. If you pass the test you are in, if you don't, well you didn't pass the test. They do it in Europe, we used to do it, so its certainly possible.

Tests and standards should be set on a global basis by the feds. But we need to return to the decentralized schooling of yesterday IE de consolidate schools so that parents really are in control. Better yet private schools should replace all public ones, just vouchers good for one basic education. Scholarships would fill in any need for the bright student that doesn’t have their own resources to go to the best schools. Yes some schools would be better than others, just like the students, but that would at least open up genuine opportunity for all. The socialist system has failed, and failed miserably.

I went to private school for 8 years, and public for 4. I would say at least 8 or the 12 years was a total waste of my time as I learned nothing more than 4 real years of school would have taught me. My children, who went to mostly public school, wasted at least 5 years of their life in them, learning nothing. College was much more rewarding after the first 2 wasted years, relearning stuff that was suppose to be learned in 8th grade. The next 3 years and grad school in Electronics Engineering was at least interesting. I have also taken grad classes for at least 15 years on an informal basis that were useful. Bottom line, school is a terrible waste for anyone with an IQ above 90. Students that want hands on learning need to be accommodated. The world needs a few bright auto students as well as a lot of dumb ones. Every trade needs highly skilled workers, craftsmen, bright craftsmen. They are being cheated by our system. In fact future craftsmen and tradesmen get nothing out or our current system. It needs changing so that bright students can get something out of it and so that slow students also get something out of it. Right now neither gets much return for the time invested.

[2.7RACER]

The grammar, spelling, punctuation and run-on sentences used in many of the above posts; are proof enough for me regarding the quality of the respondents education.

[Moneyguy1]

If one is available, peruse a Maguffy's Reader from the 1890s. You would be surprised at the level of understanding expected from a fifth grader.

I agree with the comments concerning grammer and spelling, but attribute much of it to "typing in haste", or "exercising fingers while brain is in neutral".

What is more alarming is the incoherence of some posts and the total inaccuracy of statements made in an effort to bolster one's point of view. It is as if the writer is hoping that the reader will take the bait, hook, line and sinker, to be the truth. One should add to the mix the puerile use of personal attack as a substitute for logic and reason.

[K.B.]

Originally posted by snowman


Dos dollars, Naw its not real and I can't count that high. And not only that I never heard of Jefferson.

The sad thing is that these morons (the teachers) want to blame Bush for their failures. Its all the no child left behind acts fault.

Public school math teacher chiming in here. (one of the morons I guess)

NCLB has only added red tape for schools. The more time we spend with red tape the less we spend with kids. I know politicians mean well but they only make things worse when they legislate. Non-public schools have less red tape. They usually also have more parents that care than public schools, resulting in a higher than average group that twill try harder.

You can't legislate that kids and parents that will try harder and care more. Teachers keep doing more and more and the kids seem to do less and less. The harder teachers work - the less the kids work. We are in a cycle of society where we "owe" some people a good life even if they are not too productive. Some of the kids have a poor homelife, some have a single parent that can't do a good job alone, some have parents that don't care at all, some kids have parents that have an "attitude" so it is no wonder that the students have an attitude.

Please don't blame the schools for society's ills. In some countries only the kids who do well in school progress to the next level. In some countries they RESPECT teachers a lot more than say pro athletes. Our problem isn't with "us moron teachers" but rather with our society as a whole.

[WolfeMacleod]

Originally posted by masraum
I see your point, but the problem is that there are people that are trying to live on that wage. There are "adults" who have graduated HS and gotten married at 18 or 19 and work at retail jobs and are trying to live, rent an apt, eat, drive a car, have car ins. Have you ever tried to do that on $7/hr? I think that's about $16-17k a year.

Originally posted by tcar
Nope. Under 15k a year.

Originally posted by Big Ed
He couldn't do the math.

Actually...
Figuring a 40 hour week, $7/hr works out to $14,560 per year before taxes.
Now, consider this. Most minumim wage places will *NOT* work a person a full 40 hours, more like 30-35. Usually in an effort to screw people out of health benefits.
Let's be generous, and say 35 hours. $245/week. About $980 per month..not enough to live on.
$12,740 per year @ 35 hours per week. Before taxes, FICA, FUCU, SCRUU, and other junk are taken out.

I know this because I am a minimum wage person outside my regular field. I have worked minimum wage at all of my jobs except one, and will never qualify for anything else from a regular job. This is why I started my own company, and now make between $150-300 per hour as one of thebest in my field. I will never work minimum wage again.

[widebody911]

Originally posted by masraum
And, of course, we have plenty fo dollar coins running around for the asking, the sakajewea, or something like that.

Ok, I'm dying to see the mechanical interaction between a stripper and a dollar coin.

[singpilot]

Thom;

You and I think so alike on some things it's scary.

I could find a place to stick it.