Evolution vs creationism

[RPKESQ]

Thanks Zuffen,
For your eloquent outline of the debate. You have written in a nutshell what I have been trying to do in multiple pages.

[Mulhollanddose]

Originally posted by zuffen
but in light of recent attacks on the scientific community by creationists as of late I can see why the tone was a little hostile.

Attacks? For example?...Some of the greatest scientists in world history have been creationists.

[stuartj]

Originally posted by snowman
Yes, God did "create" evolution.

Finally the correct answer! God Created us using evolution as a tool. IE Intelligent Design.

We have free will to choose

1. The calling of God
2. The calling of the Devil
3. People who aren't to smart who don't know what to do.
4. People who think they are smarter than God.

Only the people in number 3 may get a free ride.

You guys keep saying we have "free will". So answer me this. If God created us, and knows every hair on our heads, and knows everything in the Universe, He already knows what we will choose. He made us that way, after all.

So how, if God already knows what you will choose, how can you have "free will"?

And why, if'n He made us that way, and He loves us, is he prepared to consign us, His children, to a Fiery Pit for all Eternity for making choice that he already knew we would make?

[Nathans_Dad]

Zuffen: I can't speak for other creationists, but I don't see why you would use science to explain God. God created science, he exists outside the boundaries of our world. It seems a bit naive for the creation to think they can define the creator.

Also, I haven't seen a scientific explanation for the origin of life be put to a scientific experiment. Can you post a link to that study? I'd like to read it.

[Nathans_Dad]

Originally posted by stuartj
You guys keep saying we have "free will". So answer me this. If God created us, and knows every hair on our heads, and knows everything in the Universe, He already knows what we will choose. He made us that way, after all.

So how, if God already knows what you will choose, how can you have "free will"?

And why, if'n He made us that way, and He loves us, is he prepared to consign us, His children, to a Fiery Pit for all Eternity for making choice that he already knew we would make?

Stuart I already answered this question for you a month ago. Put simply, God doesn't have to be bound by your rules. It doesn't matter whether his abilities make sense to you or not. He knows what will happen but does not control what will happen like a puppetmaster. In regards to hell, hell (eternal separation from God...not necessarily a fiery pit) is simply the just results of not having a relationship with God through his son, Jesus Christ. God doesn't condemn you to hell, you condemn yourself to hell. God sacrificed his son to allow humans to be able to reunite with him and enter heaven. That sounds pretty benevolent to me.

[stuartj]

Originally posted by Nathans_Dad
Stuart I already answered this question for you a month ago. Put simply, God doesn't have to be bound by your rules. It doesn't matter whether his abilities make sense to you or not. He knows what will happen but does not control what will happen like a puppetmaster.

Were that Augustine and Aquinas so concise.

[Nathans_Dad]

So you just don't like my answer because it is too simple? Why does God have to be complex?

In truth, answering your questions probably is an exercise in futility. Given that you have already made up your mind about the topic, I could provide you the most eloquent answer possible and you would still dismiss it.

[stuartj]

The question is one of pre-destination, and there is a there is a vast difference between simple and simplistic. Your answer is the latter.

I note your tag line and your complaint that I am inflexible in my thinking with some bemusement.

[klaucke]

Originally posted by Mulhollanddose
Some of the greatest scientists in world history have been creationists.

Perhaps, but not in the field of evolution. Darwinism had many objections in its day, and apparently that continues today. Lord Kelvin (who became a Fellow of the Royal Society at age 23) objected, but he also said "Heavier than air flying machines are impossible" (1895) and ""There is nothing new to be discovered in physics now. All that remains is more and more precise measurement." (1900) So, yes, many great scientists may not have believed in evolution, but that doesn't mean they are right.

Here is the short of it in my opinion:

Creationism : not testable, therefore not science. To debate it is moot-- the topic is philosophical/religious, not scientific. ID has no affiliation w/ science because it is not open for experimentation. ID is really just a rehash of creationism with a false association with science. William T. Keeton of Cornell University said it well in Biological Science (1967):

Science’s insistence on testability imposes limitations on what it can do. For example, the hypothesis that there is a God working through the natural laws of the universe is not testable and hence cannot be evaluated by science. Science cannot say that there is such a God, nor can it say that there is not. This does not mean that science cannot legitimately say something about certain attributes ascribed to God. Throughout history men have made statements about the physical universe in the name of their gods, and have insisted that denial of their statements is a denial of their gods. If this is so, then science may well have to deny those gods. Any part of the physical universe can be studied by science, and he who makes the existence of his God stand or fall on some supposed fact about the universe risks having science destroy his God.

Evolution: evidence includes:
-Systematics (i.e. taxonomy)
-Biogeography
-Comparitive Morphology/Anatomy
-Ultrastructure (i.e. 9+2 structure of flagella/cilia)
-Embryology
-Paleobiology (i.e. Fossil Record)
-Biochemistry and Molecular Biology
-Evolutionary Biology

I think Theodosius Dobzhansky put it best:

"Nothing in biology makes sense, except in the light of evolution"

Ernst Mayer, Harvard Professor Emeritus, also put it succintly and plainly:

"Evolution as such is no longer a theory... it is as much a fact as that the earth revolves around the sun rather than reverse. The changes documented by the fossil record in precisely dated geological strata are a fact that we designate as evolution."

For me, the conclusion is clear enough. Then again, maybe there's a little William Jennings Bryan (see Scopes Monkey Trial) in Mulhollanddose-- it wouldn't suprise me in the least!

[Moses]

Originally posted by Nathans_Dad
hell ... is simply the just results of not having a relationship with God through his son, Jesus Christ.

The exclusivity of salvation. Tough selling point.

[tobster1911]

Originally posted by stuartj
You guys keep saying we have "free will". So answer me this. If God created us, and knows every hair on our heads, and knows everything in the Universe, He already knows what we will choose. He made us that way, after all.

So how, if God already knows what you will choose, how can you have "free will"?

I think this may be usless because you only want to poke fun at Christians but here goes....

Free Will and All Knowing are not at odds. Not even close.

Setup: You have a toddler walking toward a hot stove with a determined look on thier face.

All knowing part: You as a more experienced adult already know the intention and outcome of this. You could say you already know what they will choose.

Free will part: You could stop the child. Force them to do what you want. They would not understand why but you would save them some pain. OR you could give them the free will to choose their own course of action. This is not the easiest thing to do but sometimes is the most instructive.

[tobster1911]

Stupid double post. Sorry.

[kang]

Originally posted by tobster1911
I think this may be usless because you only want to poke fun at Christians but here goes....

Free Will and All Knowing are not at odds. Not even close.

Setup: You have a toddler walking toward a hot stove with a determined look on thier face.

All knowing part: You as a more experienced adult already know the intention and outcome of this. You could say you already know what they will choose.

Free will part: You could stop the child. Force them to do what you want. They would not understand why but you would save them some pain. OR you could give them the free will to choose their own course of action. This is not the easiest thing to do but sometimes is the most instructive.

Isn't there some statement in the bible that god already knows who is and who is not going to heaven? The chosen ones?

[zuffen]

HI again, sorry about leaving but there was a He Haw marathon on CMT.....

mul,

please tell me who you speak of. I am curious?

Nathans_dad

Zuffen: I can't speak for other creationists, but I don't see why you would use science to explain God. God created science, he exists outside the boundaries of our world. It seems a bit naive for the creation to think they can define the creator.

One thing most lose in this debate is evolutionists are not trying to explain god, just their observations of how and why the world works.
My wife is a christian and believes that god breathed a soul into humans at some point in time during evolution. in other words she knows evolution is real and incorporates that into her faith.

Also, I haven't seen a scientific explanation for the origin of life be put to a scientific experiment. Can you post a link to that study? I'd like to read it.

Abiogenesis is what you are refereing to and this is different from evolution. and yes I can provide papers on this subject.

a few papers;

1. Pitsch, S. Krishnamurthy, R. Arrhenius, G. (2000). Concentration of simple aldehydes by sulfite-containing double-layer hydroxide minerals: implications for biopoesis. Helvetica chimica acta. Sep-Oct. 83(9):2398-411.
2. Hartman, H. (1998). Photosynthesis and the origin of life. Orig Life Evol Biosph. Oct. 28(4-6):515-21.
3. Arrhenius, G. Sales, B. Mojzsis, S. Lee, T. (1997). Entropy and charge in molecular evolution--the case of phosphate. J Theor Biol. Aug 21. 187(4):503-22.


a great link;

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/


more can be provided if wanted

[zuffen]

mul,

"Attacks? For example?...Some of the greatest scientists in world history have been creationists."

Just look in this thread one can clearly see attacks on both sides. Lately inteligent design (a clear ruse for creationism) has been widely used in both political and religious areas as a legit science. however that is not the topic on hand here in this thread. last you are correct that some scientist are or have been creationists, but waht has not been said is that they had no expertise in evolution or areas of evolutionary focus (molecular biology, evolutionary biologist etc.)

[IROC]

Originally posted by klaucke
Perhaps, but not in the field of evolution. Darwinism had many objections in its day, and apparently that continues today.

I may be mistaken, but I think it is interesting to note that Darwin did not come up with the theory of evolution. It had been around long before Darwin. What Darwin *did* do though, was to propose "natural selection" as the driving force behind evolution.

The fact that evolution had occurred was never in question - Darwin just came up with the key point in *how* it occurred.

Mike

[Mulhollanddose]

Originally posted by IROC
The fact that evolution had occurred was never in question -

Evolution is still nothing more than a theory with multiple logical flaws and leaping suppositions.

[Mulhollanddose]

Originally posted by klaucke

Besides mass murder, what have atheists or evolutionists done for the world?

[RPKESQ]

Null wrote:
Besides mass murder, what have atheists or evolutionists done for the world?



Correct answer:
Much of what you use and enjoy, o ye of the narrow uneducated mind. Although to discover this you would have to learn a lot. That is probably asking too much.

[IROC]

Originally posted by Mulhollanddose
Evolution is still nothing more than a theory with multiple logical flaws and leaping suppositions.

Point out the flaws and suppositions. What are they? I'm sure the scientific community would love to hear them and you'd make millions in the process because so far, no one has been able to pull that off.

The theory of evolution would cease to exist if *one* piece of evidence was found to contradict it. Just one! No one has found it yet and you *know* that many have tried. Just think of the notoriety to be had if you could successfully topple the theory!

Mike