Evolution vs creationism

[kang]

Originally posted by Mulhollanddose
Evolution is still nothing more than a theory with multiple logical flaws and leaping suppositions.

The word theory, as defined in Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory

The word "theory" has a number of distinct meanings in different fields of knowledge, depending on the context and their methodologies. In common usage, people use the word "theory" to signify "conjecture", "speculation", or "opinion." In this sense, "theories" are opposed to "facts" — parts of the world, or claims about the world, that are real or true regardless of what people think.

In science, a theory is a proposed description, explanation, or model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through empirical observation. It follows from this that for scientists "theory" and "fact" do not necessarily stand in opposition. For example, it is a fact that an apple dropped on earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet, and the theory which explains why the apple behaves so is the current theory of gravitation.

The “theory” of evolution is not “conjecture” or “speculation” or “opinion.” The theory of evolution is an explanation of what we see in nature. It is capable of predicting future occurrences (that animals will continue to evolve, not necessarily what they will evolve into), and it is testable. If there were one observation, one experiment, that showed the theory were wrong, it would be thrown out or revised. This has not happened.

[kang]

Originally posted by Aurel
I watched `by accident` a preacher on TV this morning, and I was flabergasted at how he was attempting to debunk the theory of evolution, and that man did not evolve from monkeys...To me this has always been common knowledge, and 14C datation can demonstrate without a doubt the age of human looking bones. But the preacher was ignoring the facts, and attemting to demonstrate that evolution did not exists, because it goes against the Bible teachings. So how do you reconcile the Bible teachings and the findings of science without rejecting or ignoring science?

Aurel

Here’s another example of what Aurel, in the very first post in this long thread, was referring to:

Museum uses bible to tell earth's history

I just don’t get how they can say things like humans and dinosaurs roamed the earth together and get away with it. They are passing this information off as fact, when it most clearly is not.

[snowman]

Man has not evolved from monkeys. Man is his own monkey, a species distinct from other monkeys.

[jluetjen]

Originally posted by jluetjen

1) First the big issue that I have with the "creationists". I agree that many "Creationists" don't seem to know much about science and argue pretty unreasonable points. Since they do make the wilder claims within the Christian community, they also tend to get more press which is unfortunate. I went to listen to person make what would be widely considered to be a "creationist" presentation at my church and walked out during the intermission because of many of the very issues that you mention. (Incidentally, it was based on the idea that certain fossils have been found that travel vertically through the different strata -- thus showing that the different strata were put down at one time -- ie. during a great flood. If anyone knows anything about this subject pro or con, I be interested in seeing it.) It didn't dim in the least though my belief that God created the Universe. It just also confirmed in my mind that within that Universe there are people (both believers and non-believers) who don't seem to know how to use the senses that God gave them to good affect.

To pick up on my earlier post, what do people know about Polystrate Fossils? As I mentioned earlier, I didn't buy into the speaker's position that the existance of these fossils was absolute refutiation of the scientific chronology of creation and thus proof of the "Creationist's" view. But they do seem to pose an interesting question about how such fossils came it being.

A) The original organism was covered in some sort of a mud-slide.
B) The fossil was displaced by geological events (I don't buy this since then the strata would be displaced too I'd think. (See image 20 on page 6 of the link)
C) The plant fossil was mis-identified.

What do people think? How did these fossils come about?

Apparently, the vertical whale fossil has already been discredited, reinforcing my opionions of the strident creationist once again. Lies and deception don't do a good job of proclaiming God's word.

[Nathans_Dad]

Originally posted by Moses
The exclusivity of salvation. Tough selling point.

That's true. But God isn't trying to sell you something. This isn't a popularity contest or marketing to the lowest common denominator.

It is what it is.

[zuffen]

jluetjen,


not my particular area however here is another good link as to why and how:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/polystrate/trees.html

[jluetjen]

Yup Zuffen, I found that site for the "Con" view and this site for the "Pro" view. As I said, I don't think that Creationists are doing themselves any favors hanging their arguments on Polystrate fossils. You certainly won't find me making any theological arguments based on them.

[zuffen]

Yeah, I saw that "pro" site as well, not a very well put together argument...

[stuartj]

Originally posted by kang
Isn't there some statement in the bible that god already knows who is and who is not going to heaven? The chosen ones?

Romans 8:29-30.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

[kang]

I'm no expert on polystrate fossils, and I doubt any of you are either. I’ve read some of the above links, as well as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polystrate_fossils . I don’t see anything that would make me think they disprove evolution. In fact, I see that mainstream geology has good explanations for them.

Scientists have known about these fossils for a long time. If they disproved evolution, it would have happened a long time ago, and we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

[stuartj]

Originally posted by tobster1911
I think this may be usless because you only want to poke fun at Christians but here goes....

Free Will and All Knowing are not at odds. Not even close.

Setup: You have a toddler walking toward a hot stove with a determined look on thier face.

All knowing part: You as a more experienced adult already know the intention and outcome of this. You could say you already know what they will choose.

Free will part: You could stop the child. Force them to do what you want. They would not understand why but you would save them some pain. OR you could give them the free will to choose their own course of action. This is not the easiest thing to do but sometimes is the most instructive.

The Bible deals quite clearly with the Age of Understanding.

Either God knows what you will choose and you therefore have no free will. Or God allows you choice, and is therefore not omniscient.

[Moses]

Originally posted by Nathans_Dad
hell...is simply the just results of not having a relationship with God through his son, Jesus Christ.

Loving one's neighbor begins with giving up the claim to have special access to truth.

So Gandhi goes to hell? Hard to wrap my heart around that one.

[jluetjen]

Originally posted by Moses

So Gandhi goes to hell? Hard to wrap my heart around that one.

There is considerable discussion within the Christian community regarding the value of "good works". Without going into details, the camps kind of break out like this...

- If you do good works, it will help to make you receptive to the Holy Spirit (assuming that you somehow have heard the Word of God), and you will come to believe and be saved.

- If you believe through the Holy Spirit, you will do good works.

It's kind of a Chicken and Egg type of discussion.

As I said earlier, it's not for us to judge what is in other's hearts. Whether Gandhi is saved or not is up to God. As a Christian, it's my duty to be available to share and tell the truth about God's Word with people who want to learn about it. If Gandhi heard about Jesus (as I'm pretty sure that he did), and chose to turn away, it's kind of like a poor innocent man in court turning away a top shelf court appointed lawyer. Do so at your own risk. Given that nobody's perfect, you won't have much to stand on.

[Nathans_Dad]

Originally posted by stuartj
The Bible deals quite clearly with the Age of Understanding.

Either God knows what you will choose and you therefore have no free will. Or God allows you choice, and is therefore not omniscient.

Stuart you again are trying to force God into your box. Let me put it to you this way:

Imagine for a second that God exists and that God was responsible for creation. Just for the sake of argument, consider that for a moment. Consider how powerful and intelligent and awesome that being would be.

Now then, can you consider that a being that is capable of creating the universe and the laws that govern it would also be capable of existing outside those laws? Would that being be able to perform things that would not make logical sense to humans?

[jluetjen]

Originally posted by stuartj
Romans 8:29-30.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Certainly not one of the easiest verses to understand. Here is some related discussion and additional verses for consideration. It's obviously not cut and dried.

Two major concepts are involved in the biblical meaning of predestination. First, God, who is all-powerful in the universe, has foreknown and predestined the course of human history and the lives of individuals. If He were not in complete control of human events, He would not be sovereign and, thus, would not be God.
Second, God's predestination of human events does not eliminate human choice. A thorough understanding of how God can maintain His sovereignty and still allow human freedom seems to be reserved for His infinite mind alone. Great minds have struggled with this problem for centuries.

Two views of predestination are prominent today. One view, known as Calvinism, holds that God offers irresistible grace to those whom he elects to save. The other view, known as Arminianism, insists that God's grace is the source of redemption but that it can be resisted by people through free choice. In Calvinism, God chooses the believer; in Arminianism, the believer chooses God.

Although the term predestination is not used in the Bible, the apostle Paul uses a form of the same word in Ephesians 1:11: "We have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will."
All Christians agree that creation is moving within the purpose of God. This purpose is to bring the world into complete conformity to His will (Rom. 8:28). From the very beginning of time, God predestined to save humankind by sending His Son to accomplish salvation. Thus, "God would have all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:4).

The doctrine of predestination does not mean that God is unjust, deciding that some people will be saved and that others will be lost. Mankind, because of Adam's Fall in the Garden of Eden, sinned by free choice.
Thus, no person deserves salvation. But God's grace is universal. His salvation is for "everyone who believes" (Rom. 1:16).

Paul also declared that he was a debtor under obligation to take the message of the gospel to other people (Rom. 1:14) so they might hear and obey. Paul clearly meant that no one is saved apart from the will of God and no one is lost apart from the will of God. But the will of God functions within an order that God Himself has established.

Predestination is a profound and mysterious biblical teaching. It focuses our thinking on human freedom and responsibility as well as divine sovereignty.

Youngblood, Ronald F., General Editor; F.F. Bruce and R.K. Harrison, Consulting Editors, Nelson's New Illustrated Bible Dictionary, (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson) 1997, c1995.

[RPKESQ]

As a non-believer, it's my duty to be available to share and tell the truth about the fantasy called God's Word with people who want to learn about it and all of the nonsense associated with it. It is my life's work..

[stuartj]

Originally posted by Nathans_Dad
Stuart you again are trying to force God into your box. Let me put it to you this way:

Imagine for a second that God exists and that God was responsible for creation. Just for the sake of argument, consider that for a moment. Consider how powerful and intelligent and awesome that being would be.

Now then, can you consider that a being that is capable of creating the universe and the laws that govern it would also be capable of existing outside those laws? Would that being be able to perform things that would not make logical sense to humans?

Thanks for this wonderful image, Klauke.

[Nathans_Dad]

And since when have we had prayer in school?????????

Oh that's right, I forgot. I am a Christian, therefore I must be about the business of shoving my beliefs down everyone's throat and establishing a theocracy in the US. Silly me, I forgot.

[jluetjen]

Originally posted by RPKESQ
As a non-believer, it's my duty to be available to share and tell the truth about the fantasy called God's Word with people who want to learn about it and all of the nonsense associated with it. It is my life's work..

I've no doubt that it's your life's work. But why do you feel compelled to be anti-God rather the pro-Science? That's what gets me. I'd find you far more enlightening if you'd spend more time espousing the strength's of your views and answering questions, rather then to constantly be telling me and other Christians how stupid you think we are. I don't find anything remotely useful, interesting or enlightening about a beligerant, hateful philosophy. Unfortunately that's how you come across.

[stuartj]

Originally posted by jluetjen
Certainly not one of the easiest verses to understand. Here is some related discussion and additional verses for consideration. It's obviously not cut and dried.

So at the heart of it lies this.

"The doctrine of predestination does not mean that God is unjust, deciding that some people will be saved and that others will be lost. Mankind, because of Adam's Fall in the Garden of Eden, sinned by free choice.
Thus, no person deserves salvation. But God's grace is universal. His salvation is for "everyone who believes" (Rom. 1:16)."

And this is utter nonsense.

And circular. God created Adam. God created to Adam to "sin".

I wish I'd thought of religion. Id have that GT3 by now.