Manufacture your own AR-15

fastpat · 08-06-2006, 04:41 AM

Yep, you make the receiver yourself, then use the standard parts to finish it. The semi-raw castings from here:
http://www.ktordnance.com/kto/products.php

jyl · jyl's Garage

What are the pros and cons vs buying a complete AR-15 or building one from a finished receiver?

fastpat · 08-06-2006, 06:49 AM

There is no paper work to fill out, and it is completely lawful as long as you're not making it to sell. Like a kit car, there is also the satisfaction of building it yourself. A little less money too I think.

azasadny · azasadny's Garage

I just saw an Armalite AR-15 at my local Dunham's sporting Good store for $1050. I would have bought it on the spot if I hadn't just replaced my engine on the 911. No "gun money" right now...

charleskieffner · 08-06-2006, 04:33 PM

if i was drafted or enlisted they would have to court martial me before i WOULD EVER CARRY AN AR-15 or M-16 into combat. no matter what ammo you use, no matter how well you clean it, if its hard chromed................i dont give a damn. THEY ARE JUNK!

my bimmer friend and my boss have bought stock ones, race models and every damn time we go out they JAM! reload ammo-brand new ammo-GI ammo you name it! THEY ARE JUNK!

i have shot BAZILLIONS OF ROUNDS thru my HK's and NEVER EVER HAD A JAM!

i have shot BAZILLIONS OF ROUNDS thru my M-14's and NEVER EVER A JAM!

sorry to pop your bubble, but in any firefight that my A$$ is on the line.............I WILL NEVER CARRY AN AR-15 or M-16.

please watch history channel on the development of the aforementioned BOAT ANCHOR! and yes the "WHIZ KIDS" of the era had a major role in screwing up stoners design!

buy on low bid..............and this is the result. 30 yrs later they cant make them work!

fastpat · 08-06-2006, 05:29 PM

Prior message aside, the AR-15 series is a fine weapon, particularly when carried by an assaulting force. In the same space needed for 160 rounds of 7.62mm ammo you can carry 240 rounds of 5.56mm. The rifles weigh about 7 pounds empty, the carbines a little less. Even with the light weight, the recoil is very manageable, and the weapon is very accurate out to a bit more than 600 yards.

Personally, I don't own one because I'm never going to be running in an assault on a position, not at my age anyway. For defense of a fixed position, where you might have a entire case of ammo at your feet, a 7.62mm weapon is your friend. These rifles typically weigh about 11 pounds, more with a red dot or telescopic sight and bipod. They can be made accurate out to about 800 yards or so. At that range the projectile drops below supersonic and becomes less and less stable.

Racerbvd · Racerbvd's Garage

ewave · 08-07-2006, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by charleskieffner
if i was drafted or enlisted they would have to court martial me before i WOULD EVER CARRY AN AR-15 or M-16 into combat. no matter what ammo you use, no matter how well you clean it, if its hard chromed................i dont give a damn. THEY ARE JUNK!

my bimmer friend and my boss have bought stock ones, race models and every damn time we go out they JAM! reload ammo-brand new ammo-GI ammo you name it! THEY ARE JUNK!

i have shot BAZILLIONS OF ROUNDS thru my HK's and NEVER EVER HAD A JAM!

i have shot BAZILLIONS OF ROUNDS thru my M-14's and NEVER EVER A JAM!

sorry to pop your bubble, but in any firefight that my A$$ is on the line.............I WILL NEVER CARRY AN AR-15 or M-16.

please watch history channel on the development of the aforementioned BOAT ANCHOR! and yes the "WHIZ KIDS" of the era had a major role in screwing up stoners design!

buy on low bid..............and this is the result. 30 yrs later they cant make them work!

Wow!!!???

This has not been my experience. Are your HK's and M14 semi, or FULL auto? I have a CLASS III, BAT registered full auto (conversion) AR15, and I've never had a problem with it. And, I've abused it quite a bit. Using 100 round Beta CMAGS, full auto, till the barrel glowed red. I've shot more then 2000 round between cleaning, and never had a misfire or jamb.

I also own a HK91 (semi) and it has the worst stock trigger pull of any rifle I have ever used. The slide does not lock back on the last round. (Trigger pull 21 leaves you with a sinking feeling in your stomach as you now realize your weapon is empty, and that last shot you lined up was with an empty chamber.) It is considerably heavier, and much more complicated to disassemble and clean.

I believe the problems you are talking about concerning the M16/AR15 date back to the early 60's when they were introduced. It is my understanding they were issued to the troupes with out any cleaning instructions or kits, and the type of powder that was used was not what was originally specified for use in the weapon. As a result during the first year(s) of implementation they had quite a few problems as you describe. Since then the correct powder has been specified, correct cleaning training has been implementer, and the receiver was redesigned with a "Forward Assist".

Are you sure you are not stuck back in 1960's? Did you ever drop acid? LOL J/K!!!

ewave · 08-07-2006, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fastpat
There is no paper work to fill out, and it is completely lawful as long as you're not making it to sell. Like a kit car, there is also the satisfaction of building it yourself. A little less money too I think.

fastpat,
This is not MY understanding of the law... Are you sure?

BTW, the going price in Texas for a clone (not Colt) AR15 is around $500 new.

charleskieffner · 08-07-2006, 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fastpat
Prior message aside, the AR-15 series is a fine weapon, particularly when carried by an assaulting force. In the same space needed for 160 rounds of 7.62mm ammo you can carry 240 rounds of 5.56mm. The rifles weigh about 7 pounds empty, the carbines a little less. Even with the light weight, the recoil is very manageable, and the weapon is very accurate out to a bit more than 600 yards.

Personally, I don't own one because I'm never going to be running in an assault on a position, not at my age anyway. For defense of a fixed position, where you might have a entire case of ammo at your feet, a 7.62mm weapon is your friend. These rifles typically weigh about 11 pounds, more with a red dot or telescopic sight and bipod. They can be made accurate out to about 800 yards or so. At that range the projectile drops below supersonic and becomes less and less stable.

yes thats why two things are being considered by the army................another weapon AND HOW TO RECHAMBER THE PIP SQUEAK UNEFFECTIVE THRU EVEN MULTIPLE LAYERS OF CLOTHING .223 round! ie. how do we take an ineffective weapon and rechamber it to a more powerful cartridge and cause more chambering problems.

never in my life have i witnessed a more problematic piece of equiptment in my life. even today after "all the fixes" there are reports back from my best friends son in mozul of malfunctions. thats why he is carrying the SAW for his squad.

the angle about carrying more rounds is bunk pure and simple when the weapon jams. what are troops gonna do? throw the bullets at the enemy? advantage of the .308...............more firepower pure and simple. 1200 yd range in the hands of a qualified practiced individual. able to shoot thru 8x8x16 block walls. and NO JAMS!

you can argue this point til your BLUE in the face. but bottom line is the .223 is nothing more than a glorified deer round the same as a 7.62x 39. the difference btwn the two is kalashnikov made a better weapon that is battle tested. hell im amazed RUGER didnt get the ARMYS contract. no jams ever with mini-14! in .223 or 7.62 x 39.

i have watched my boss and my bimmer friend every damn time we go to range or out into the field, have problems with each flavor of AR-15 they own. come back after the last time out and swear they cleaned the gun, bought some new WAZOO part that promises never to allow weapon to jam, new reloads, new federal rounds, new GI rounds.................and guess what? THE DAMN THING JAMS!

and just to piss them off i'll light off a 30rd stick of some of the nastiest, rustiest old czech surplus .308 and wonder of wonders..............every round goes BANG! TALK ABOUT RUBBING SALT INTO THE WOUND!

and if none of this convinces you about the egregious error in your thought...............PLEASE WATCH THE HK FIREARMS VIDEO ON HOW THE HK LINE OF BATTLE RIFLES .308-.223-7.62x39 are placed in the mud, buried and then run over by trucks, AND THEN FIRED! i dont think you will be able to do that with an AR-15 EVER and make it go bang! HELL THEY DONT WANT TO GO BANG WHEN THEY ARE SPOTLESSLY CLEAN!

charleskieffner · 08-07-2006, 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ewave
Wow!!!???

This has not been my experience. Are your HK's and M14 semi, or FULL auto? I have a CLASS III, BAT registered full auto (conversion) AR15, and I've never had a problem with it. And, I've abused it quite a bit. Using 100 round Beta CMAGS, full auto, till the barrel glowed red. I've shot more then 2000 round between cleaning, and never had a misfire or jamb.

I also own a HK91 (semi) and it has the worst stock trigger pull of any rifle I have ever used. The slide does not lock back on the last round. (Trigger pull 21 leaves you with a sinking feeling in your stomach as you now realize your weapon is empty, and that last shot you lined up was with an empty chamber.) It is considerably heavier, and much more complicated to disassemble and clean.

I believe the problems you are talking about concerning the M16/AR15 date back to the early 60's when they were introduced. It is my understanding they were issued to the troupes with out any cleaning instructions or kits, and the type of powder that was used was not what was originally specified for use in the weapon. As a result during the first year(s) of implementation they had quite a few problems as you describe. Since then the correct powder has been specified, correct cleaning training has been implementer, and the receiver was redesigned with a "Forward Assist".

Are you sure you are not stuck back in 1960's? Did you ever drop acid? LOL J/K!!!

all of mine are semi-auto only! i dont need full auto to make a hit. if i need FULL AUTO i'll buy a BAR or a .50 cal. yeah its real cool to watch anyones barrel on full climb and all the hits are off the mark. no im not stuck in the '60's because the malfunctions with both of my friends weapons are recent. after watching the history channel sunday on this exact topic i decided to write.

as far as HK and bolt closing on last round..........theres this little magazine follower you can stuff in your mags that keeps bolt open on last round. as far as trigger pull, they are just like any other mass produced weapon, each one needs to be honed to users specs. my length of pull was changed due to my size and yes we have opted to smooth trigger. disassembly is in fact SIMPLE with NO TOOLS NEEDED! i can and have, just to piss my buddies off, taken apart my action blindfolded and put back together again. so it is doable. you just need to practice alot.

if i EVER NEEDED to place my life in harms way my choice will be my HK's. i too have subscribed to shooting thousands of rounds thru them, run a few swabs thru barrel when i get home and then go out again and SHOOT THEM CLEAN! it all depends on if we get drawn for hunting how much shooting we do. if we dont get drawn we shoot less and tear them apart and clean the hell out of everything. if we do get drawn then we go nuts and shoot ALOT for practice and minimal maint. i always bring my bolt for hunting good weather, my backup(w/5rd legal clip) for nasty slogging thru snow mud is my HK-91. i cant hurt it! 1200 meter iron sites, and leupold fixed 6 power on quick relase scope mt that zeroes EVERY TIME!

i will admit that the M-14's demand more maint than the HK's. i own a custom factory super duper match w/stainless match hart barrel and mcmillian USMC fiberglass stock and a SOCOM. both of these, the quality from the factory was perfect. both have been accurized now, and operation is flawless.

i think your going to see here in the future either 2 things occur. either the military rechambers the M-16(the cheap way out) or another weapon. i tend to shy towards the new weapon angle due to current testing going on from various mfgs. please go to HK.com and get a real look at the future of battlefield weapons. its pretty sad when FN/FABRIK has to make weapons for COLT. its even sadder when winchester which was an american ICON is now out of biz.

charleskieffner · 08-07-2006, 05:55 AM

oh by the way please look at tools involved to dis assemble on FN-FAL in .223 and .308. look at tools involved to strip M-14's. look at tools involved to disassemble M-16..........LOOK AT NO TOOLS TO DISASSEMBLE HK G-series(91-93-94) weapons.............right down to firing pin! yes i have played with all 4 and disasembled. HK wins hands down.

who has market share in world....? FN-FAL #1 HK #2. where did all of our m1 garands and carbines go? 3rd world countries. where will all our M-16's go? 4th world countries!

why are US special ops forces using HK P9S antiquated pistols? why are US special op forces using HK-21 belt and box fed weapons?
why are US special op forces using PSG1 sniper rifles?
why are US special op forces using HK MP-5's in 9mm/10mm/40 cal?
why are US FBI agents using HK-94's in semi-auto?
why does the country of mexico use HK .308's and .223's not our M-16's? even thou we sell them 95% of all military needs right down to selling them our USED 6-color chocolate chip dez camo BDU's!
why does the US SECRET SERVICE use HK MP-5K's for presidential detail?

bottom line IF YOUR A GRUNT, procurement buys CRAP ON LOWEST BID! HELL OF A WAY TO FIGHT A WAR ON LOWEST BID!

maybe we should sell entire arsenal of M-16's, or trade them in for AK-47's............................at least they GO BANG EVERY TIME!

Tim Hancock · 08-07-2006, 05:56 AM

I built an AR 15 with "Rock River Arm" components starting with a bare "finished" receiver (A "finished" receiver must be purchased thru an FFL). I bought a receiver hardware kit, then a 16" flat top upper, a plastic stock and an A2 style removable sight/carry handle (for now at least). I ended up saving a couple hundred bucks by doing it myself vs buying a similarly configured preassembled one and it was fun.

I have shot about 500 cheap "Wolf" rounds thru it with no misfires or jams. I was in the army years ago and it is true that AR's are more susceptible to dirt induced jams in the field than the AK 47 type rifles. The originals in the 60's did not have forward assist mechanisms and dirt induced jams were occuring quite often. That is why the forward assist mechanisms were added to help coax a dirty bolt assembly forward if needed.

If you want an AR, unless you plan on dragging it thru the mud and or sand on a regular basis, I would not worry about the jamming issues. The stock flip up dust cap will likely prevent any problems when using for sport. Also all magazines are not created equal and while I have not had any issues using cheap surplus magazines, I have heard others swear by the fancier styles.

I do not claim that an AR is better or worse than other rifles, but they are fun to mess around with and there is a ton of accesories and different configurations for them. Check out AR15.com for tons of info and links to various suppliers.

Jeff Higgins · 08-07-2006, 06:26 AM

The AR-15 is not really my cup of tea, but I have certainly spent a lot of time with them and around them. I have never seen them to be any more or less problematic than any other rifle of that kind. There is a lingering miss-trust, bordering on hatred of them within the firearms hobby. Lots of copy has been written and re-hashed ad nauseum over their "problems", which have long since been rectified. Lot of "experts" perpetuate this reputation; these folks are more expert at reading other's copy than going out and seeing for themselves.

I would suspect that anyone that continues to have problems with them is probably creating those problems themselves. Like the 1911 auto pistol, the AR-15 enjoys huge aftermarket support. You can buy just about any part you want in some kind of custom guise. Also like the 1911, many of these parts "fix what ain't broken" and are more or less sold to folks that have not a clue, but want to impress their buddies at the range. They mix and match incompatible, ill-fitted parts, and then wonder why their rifle won't shoot. Of course it's because the gun itself is a POS, not because they have so thoroughly dicked it up. Bottom line is the modern AR-15 is a fine rifle, irrespective of the amature hacks that read more than they shoot and wind up ruining their own.

Porsche-O-Phile · Porsche-O-Phile's Garage

I've shot AR-15, AK-47 and Galil, though certainly not to the extent of some of the other folks here. As far as comfort I thought the Galil was far and away the best, though it was kind of heavy. Very stable though.

If I ever had to go into battle, I'd say any of the three would be a fine primary weapon but I'd really feel better with an MP5 or something at my side "just in case" too. . .

Just wondering how the reliability of any home-made gun is. Those kits are intriguing, but I don't really have a home metal shop and I've got very little experience gunsmithing (I've always just bought mine and other than cleaning them obsessively, I don't do any work on 'em myself). Maybe an excuse to get into something new. . . Dunno. Anyone actually bought one of those kits? How reliable are they?

charleskieffner · 08-07-2006, 07:09 AM

being involved with aerospace machining, we machined a good deal of weapons parts here in the SW. look at any shotgun news and you will be amazed at what a large "cottage industry" it is. we machined many AR-15 receivers, M-14 receivers, multiple .45 parts etc. mr higgins is correct at how people who buy parts do screw up the works sometimes because parts are not matched. have seen whole lots of receivers and various other parts returned due to poor heat treating, machining etc.. quality control is critical on these. have also watched many shops go out of biz due to this in one fell swoop due to problems. once your name is on a part and the part fails, your TOAST in the firearms industry. please note century arms/chinese M-14 FIASCO of the past!

firearms design as well as vehicle design work or dont work. weapons have to go BANG all the time and vehicles must be reliable. the old addage change one thing change 20 other items applies. to show you quality control...........the TRW airbag trigger mfgd out of 316L stainless Rockwell 32-36 had 36 quality control checks on it before it was loaded with sodium azide at TRW here. it has to go BANG in a PICO-SECOND everytime! no excuses no arguements. every damn time or TRW would be sued into the stoneage!

with over 250 mach. ops on a M-14 receiver thats alot of QUALITY CHECKS! let alone an AR-15 receiver. i dealt with military procurement and bottom line is LOWEST BID! and thats scary! the old joke of the astronauts in the shuttle on the launch pad remarking how "you know this thing was built on lowest bid" just before launch has become painful reality! why do you think our p-cars cost more than big 3 cars? more quality control!

there are designs that work under deplorable conditions and others that dont. if you want to shoot FMJ 230 gr thru your 1911 all day long it will work. if you want to shoot JHP 230 gr bullets you will need to ramp it, plain and simple. ahhhhhh back to changing something. no doubt my friends race AR-15's and STOCK AR-15's have been bastardized so much by putting mismatched parts on them that i agree that is part of the problem. but whats up with GI NEW ammo jamming, meticulous RELOADS jamming? and surplus 10 yr old US ammo jamming. or russian ammo jamming constantly?

whenever we buy a new toy the rule of thumb is take out and shoot slow/rapid fire 200 rds with 3 different flavors of ammo. take notes on what groups best, what cycles all the time. then choose ONE BRAND and THATS ALL THE WEAPON EVER EATS........PERIOD!

one problem we see alot w/any semi-auto or full at the range, is jams caused by faulty clips. when asked how long the clips has been loaded for some people will state 6 months to a year or more! the only time you load a clip is when you plan to shoot it. METAL HAS A MEMORY! ie springs take a set. on your carry weapon it is a damn good idea every week to rotate clips. unload, let sit for week while you take another clip for the next week and continue rotating. leaving clips loaded is ASKING FOR FEED PROBLEMS!

just bought RWS 5G .177 cal. pellet pistol. barrel cock 1 time and you get 700FPS out of meisterkugen pellet! outstanding closequarter combat against NASTY EVIL PACK RATS!

Tim Hancock · 08-07-2006, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Porsche-O-Phile
I've shot AR-15, AK-47 and Galil, though certainly not to the extent of some of the other folks here. As far as comfort I thought the Galil was far and away the best, though it was kind of heavy. Very stable though.

If I ever had to go into battle, I'd say any of the three would be a fine primary weapon but I'd really feel better with an MP5 or something at my side "just in case" too. . .

Just wondering how the reliability of any home-made gun is. Those kits are intriguing, but I don't really have a home metal shop and I've got very little experience gunsmithing (I've always just bought mine and other than cleaning them obsessively, I don't do any work on 'em myself). Maybe an excuse to get into something new. . . Dunno. Anyone actually bought one of those kits? How reliable are they?

In my post above, I stated I put mine together with great results, but I used one of the top brands (Rock River is a high supplier of AR and 1911 competition rifles and handguns).

There are a bunch of manufacturers of AR components. Some are high quality, some are junk. If you do some research and read some AR forums, you will find out which suppliers are decent and which ones are not. Most offer upper receivers all ready assembled which alleviates the worry over getting the headspacing right. I would recommend sticking with the same manufacturer for the main components to avoid any mix and match issues. Putting one together is easy, however machining your own case is not something most guys are going to be doing in their garage. Besides a finished lower receiver is only about $125.00 or so.

Here is a link to a local shop that I bought my stuff from. This guy does a huge business with US military guys who have him build up high quality various configurations for them.

http://www.adcofirearms.com/aracc.cfm?page=acc

ewave · 08-07-2006, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by charleskieffner
oh by the way please look at tools involved to dis assemble on FN-FAL in .223 and .308. look at tools involved to strip M-14's. look at tools involved to disassemble M-16..........LOOK AT NO TOOLS TO DISASSEMBLE HK G-series(91-93-94) weapons.............right down to firing pin! yes i have played with all 4 and disasembled. HK wins hands down.

R U smoking rope? Seriously Charles?

I am curious how you dissemble the Buffer Assembly on your HK91 with out any tools? Or replace a barrel?

And what tools are you referring to that are needed to field strip an AR15 "Down to the firing pin"? (I'm not talking about replacing a barrel onto an AR15 upper receiver.)

And have you every dissembled the "Trigger Assembly" (Semi Auto Version)of you HK91? I'm not talking about just removing the trigger assembly, I am talking about actually taking it apart AND reassembling it.

And, a personal question for you: Where did you grow up and go to school where you never learned that it is customary to capitalize the first word of each sentence in the written English language?

charleskieffner · 08-07-2006, 10:04 AM

dear ewave first off i am not trying to impress anyone with my grammer/spelling/ punctuation. go play english teacher somewhere else! if you READ the above i think we were discussing field maint. that a GI would have to take care of in the FIELD. i am very well aware of armours tools needed to take off the buffer assembly of my HK-91, its called a phillips screwdriver!(included in HK's field sight adj.tool) as far as the trigger housing and removing the trigger, why would you have to do that???? please answer me that? mud snow dirt sand can all be cleaned very easily out of the mechanism w/out taking apart. remember the grip comes off w/1 phillips screw to allow any dirt grime to fall out! the bolt assembly needs no tools to replace a firing pin. as far as the barrel? why would you need to remove the freeking barrel?????on any of the previously mentioned weapons??? if your ZERO is off there are only a small handful of things that could cause this. A) your sights are off (readjust w/aforementioned sight tool)B) your scope and or mt are off(if off, resight. if damaged yank off and use iron sights C) you have shot the rifling out(which is highly unlikely even in combat unless it is belt fed) D) you want to play AL GORE and have your picture taken looking down the bore of his M-16!

as far as my education: BROPHY COLLEGE PREP-PHX.AZ.
REGIS COLLEGE-DENVER, COLORADO
U/A-TUCSON,AZ.
PIMA COLLEGE,TUCSON,AZ.
NAU,FLAGSTAFF,AZ.

with a 4.0 GPA HONORS BIZ MGMT/PSYCH/SOC DEGREES you mental midget.! yeah M-16/M-14/HK/FN gunners carry spare barrels in the field! give me a break. if it shoots bad and cannot be field repaired, it goes to the armorer behind the lines.

the ONLY barrels replaced in the field would be a box or belt fed SAW/M-60/HK-21/and 50's which we all know is caused by rifling being toasted by rapid fire.

the only part i ever replaced on my hk's has been the nylon buffer piece...............EVER! they did not malfunction, they were just worn so i did.
my friends have gone to FN's or HK's or M-14's, Mini-14's,STEYR-AUG's,GALIL, or SIGS as they have had enough with the AR-15 hodge podge of parts that get thrown in to build a complete rifle. read that lack of quality control on very very tight tolerances. as mentioned above people who have gone with hi-dollar quality control mfg's once again get what they pay for and i have heard GOOD THINGS about ROCK RIVER ARSENAL.

bottom line is cheap can get you killed in a heartbeat!

think about this! if bad guy(enemy) is behind 8x8x16 wall and you shoot at him with .223, what is going to happen? NOT MUCH!

now shoot at bad guy behind 8x8x16 wall and gun jams!

now shoot at same bad guy behind 8x8x16 wall with .308.........................NO MORE BAD GUY!!!!!!!

another interesting note regarding military rifle studies. GI's with full auto weapons hit the target a lesser percentage than GI's with only semi-auto capabilities. HMMMMMMMMM WONDER WHY!

why did the FBI buy HK MP-5's only to return them for HK-94's??????? ANSWER. higher percentage of ROUNDS ON TARGET!

ACCURACY SPEAKS HERE....................TALK IS DAMN CHEAP! ACTUALLY WORTHLESS IMHO! LOL!

Porsche-O-Phile · Porsche-O-Phile's Garage

Thanks Tim - sorry I misssed that. I'll check that link too.