Speeding Ticket when not speeding. What now?

[Oh Haha]

Moses: That's cool. Thanks for clarifying my question. Thanks for doing what you do. Hope I never have to see you "at work".

[DavidI]

I believe in honesty. If your son was speeding, he should own up to his violation. If he was not, then fight the ticket.

Here is the way traffic court works. A traffic cop (in some Departments there is a distinction) cites drivers during a 7 day stretch. All of those tickets get dated for one particular day, Tuesday in our jurisdiction. The cop goes to the same court every Tuesday in front of the same judge. He develops his reputation (good or bad). For the cop not to show up, 30-40 tickets could be dismissed.

The cop is given a subpoena which mandates that he appear in court, or the judge can issue a body attachment on him (which is similar to an arrest warrant). As a police supervisor, we mandate all of our cops to appear or I will have his a$$. There is no personal incentive to the cop for issuing more or less tickets. His pay is his pay. However, supervisors write annual performance evaluations on personnel. If a traffic cop is not issuing tickets, then what is he doing?

Good luck, David

[Chris Lovell]

Thanks David.
I believe in honesty as well. And that is why this is so alarming. My son, who has made his share of bone head moves, has always been honest. He called me immediately after the ticket with the "You're not going to believe this but.... this cop simply lied when he wrote me up. I was going slower than traffic, cruise set at 74, etc...."
In any event, he will either contest or concede. I will help him which ever way he chooses, but in the end, he will be doing the heavy lifting. If he concedes or loses, this Indiana scam will cost him a cool $2,000 over 5 years. Pretty frustrating to be guilty and have to prove your innocence.
C

[MMARSH]

David, Thats not exactly how we do it here in the Valley, I get subpoened to traffic court any day of the week.

There is no requirement to give a violator a printout of the speed. If requested, we do have to show them the radar or laser. Not doing so is the biggest defense that your son has and that is the angle I would go.

Couple more things. Laser is target specific, it's just like shooting a rifle with a laser scope on it. whatever I put the red box on, is what I get the speed on. The one I use is accurate to about 5000 ft, Of course I can't see a car that far. Radar is not a target specific device. The operator must be able to explain why he believes it was your car that was speeding and not the one in front or behind you.

Speed estimation is easy. watch a few cars go by at varying speeds and with practice anyone can do it within a range of 5 mph. In the state of Califonia every officer who is radar and laser trained has to be able to estimate speed or you don't get certified. In radar/laser school you spend about a day practicing just the act of speed estimation. It doesnt matter what the speed your expensive M6 says on the speedo, speed estimation is based on the movement of the vehicle.

I crack up hearing everyones war stories about what the cop did or didnt do. It's always my neighbors brother's sister and law is a cop or hada hada hada, seems like there is alot of false info out there and quite a few people seem to know how to do our job better then us.


Oh, the things I said are for California, I'm not sure how they would apply in your situation. Good luck in whatever you do. I'm a firm believer in fighting tickets if given erroneously.

[snowman]

a cops mystical ability to accurately estimate speed is total bs. A mechanical device called a speedometer can only do +/- 10mph @ 70 mph. one could turn your back to a road with a posted speedof 65 mph and state 70 mph for every car you hear go past and be correct most of the time. I have worked as an engineer designing radar, direction finding equipment, omega, loran, gps and several very special systems that producevelocity and position info for over 35 years. The scary thing is that cops actually beleive they have this ability, they do not. I can devise several demos that can conclusively prove this point.

I also have about 2 million highway miles under my belt. I have, in fact, set up a couple of bad drivers for a ticket. Did so by going fast, watching for cop to go heads up, hardapp of breaks (a good car dosen't dive), bad car who wasn't speeding appears to go whipping by me. It wasn't me that got pulled over. Trickey manover but I have used it several times. So much for estimating speed.

[MMARSH]

Originally posted by snowman
a cops mystical ability to accurately estimate speed is total bs. A mechanical device called a speedometer can only do +/- 10mph @ 70 mph. one could turn your back to a road with a posted speedof 65 mph and state 70 mph for every car you hear go past and be correct most of the time. I have worked as an engineer designing radar, direction finding equipment, omega, loran, gps and several very special systems that producevelocity and position info for over 35 years. The scary thing is that cops actually beleive they have this ability, they do not. I can devise several demos that can conclusively prove this point.

I also have about 2 million highway miles under my belt. I have, in fact, set up a couple of bad drivers for a ticket. Did so by going fast, watching for cop to go heads up, hardapp of breaks (a good car dosen't dive), bad car who wasn't speeding appears to go whipping by me. It wasn't me that got pulled over. Trickey manover but I have used it several times. So much for estimating speed.

Speed isn't estimated by using another moving vehicle. The trickey manuever you do, would not make me believe that the other vehicle was speeding, because if you tracked the vehicle, for any lenght of time, you would see that it was not covering a certain distance in a certain amount of time. Guess I'm just another ignorant cop. funny, It's something I do everyday, verified with a lidar. but it's probably not accurate either. Glad the court system doesn't have those conclusive demos that you could devise. Theres nothing mystical about it, within 5 mph is pretty easy.

[snowman]

Tellthat to the guys that got pulled over. The cop observed a speed aqbout 12 mph over the limit. he looks and sees two cars, one passing the other. Trust me, I have put on over 2 million miles, and I have seen, done,about everything. Radar can be very deceiving when there is more than one car on the road. I am also a microwave engineer with over35 years exp, and I know for a fact that these limitations are true..As to estimating speed, nothing more than lucky guesses. A speedo, built into the car can only do +/- 10 mph ,and you, just looking think you can do better? Your only fooling yourself, and if your a cop, screwing a possibly innocent driver. Speed is distance and time. Do you know the exact distance, within 10%, The exact elapsed time with your brain clock within 10%, NFW. Your speed estimate will be off by the total error. If you look at traffic that usually flows at 70, but for some reason is uniformly flowing at 60mph you won't know without radar and if some one is going 10mph faster, you will estimate 80 when he is really going 70. The guy will be in a hard spot by admitting his actual speed of 70 in a 65. I will admit that you can tell he is going 10 to 20 mph faster (not 10, or 20, just somewhere in that ballpark) But absolute speed, NFW

[john70t]

6mph over on an empty highway could mean thousands in insurance premiums points.
Left lane squatting, talking on the cell while tailgating and weaving through heavy traffic- common practice.

[Tervuren]

Snowman - you are basing your assumptions on difficulty to measure speed by speedomters in cars - devices that in most cases, are not meant to be accurate. Any change to OD of tire, will affect it. Also, alot of American cars, come from the factory set to read higher then reality.

[snowman]

The difficulty speedos have in measuring speed is much less than the human mind has in measuring speed.

[ChrisBennet]

Originally posted by Chris Lovell
Thanks David.
I believe in honesty as well. And that is why this is so alarming. My son, who has made his share of bone head moves, has always been honest. He called me immediately after the ticket with the "You're not going to believe this but.... this cop simply lied when he wrote me up. I was going slower than traffic, cruise set at 74, etc...."
In any event, he will either contest or concede. I will help him which ever way he chooses, but in the end, he will be doing the heavy lifting. If he concedes or loses, this Indiana scam will cost him a cool $2,000 over 5 years. Pretty frustrating to be guilty and have to prove your innocence.
C

It sucks to have your faith in law enforcement and the justice system dashed at such a young age. Better to have his eye's opened now than be sitting on death row someday because he thought "I'm innocent, I don't need a lawyer, I'll just explain things to the police and clear things up."

I've always been treat professionally by the police but I've seen an innocent friend get a ticket without doing anything wrong.

-Chris

[MMARSH]

Originally posted by snowman
Tellthat to the guys that got pulled over. The cop observed a speed aqbout 12 mph over the limit. he looks and sees two cars, one passing the other. Trust me, I have put on over 2 million miles, and I have seen, done,about everything. Radar can be very deceiving when there is more than one car on the road. I am also a microwave engineer with over35 years exp, and I know for a fact that these limitations are true..As to estimating speed, nothing more than lucky guesses. A speedo, built into the car can only do +/- 10 mph ,and you, just looking think you can do better? Your only fooling yourself, and if your a cop, screwing a possibly innocent driver. Speed is distance and time. Do you know the exact distance, within 10%, The exact elapsed time with your brain clock within 10%, NFW. Your speed estimate will be off by the total error. If you look at traffic that usually flows at 70, but for some reason is uniformly flowing at 60mph you won't know without radar and if some one is going 10mph faster, you will estimate 80 when he is really going 70. The guy will be in a hard spot by admitting his actual speed of 70 in a 65. I will admit that you can tell he is going 10 to 20 mph faster (not 10, or 20,
just somewhere in that ballpark) But absolute speed, NFW

You are right, speed is distance and time. Thats why the trick you mentioned earlier would not make me pull someone over for speeding it they were not. I also agree that radar is a totally different thing then laser which is target specific. The officers testimony is also different because of that.

I don't know any officer who claims they can estimate absolute speed and I certainly didn't state that I could, but I can tell the actual speed within 5 mph. Now I personally would not write a citation based on that, but I would use that estimation to decide if I was going to waste my time picking up and pointing my laser at them. I find it amusing that your going to tell me that I can't do something that I do about 15-20 times a day,everyday. I guess luckily for me, the courts seem to think my training and experiance in actually doing it means something.

BTW, Everyone is different, but unless it's a school zone or some other special circumstance, I don't even write tickets for less then 15 over. YMMV.

[jyl]

I think your son simply got a lesson in weighing risks and benefits.

Whenever you go over the speed limit, you risk a ticket and higher insurance premiums. If you're on a patrolled interstate, higher risk. if you're an out of state car, higher risk. If you're a young guy, higher risk. Add up those risks.

What are the benefits of going 74 instead of 70? You can do the next 400 miles in 18 fewer minutes. Whoopee.

Everyone has to make their own decision based on their own risk-benefit analysis, then flip the dice and live with the results.

For me, the ticket and increased insurance don't matter much, I make enough money. But I usually stay at or under the speed limit in a 70 mph zone anyway, its just not interesting to go fast on a dead stright stretch of highway.

For a college student for whom $2000 is a lot more important, I'd think the risk-benefit balance would suggest setting the cruise control at 70 mph.

(Oh, the "70 mph would have been dangerously slow" is not convincing. If you want to drive the speed limit, just hang out in the slow lane with the 18-wheelers.)

[competentone]

Originally posted by jyl
I think your son simply got a lesson in weighing risks and benefits....

For a college student for whom $2000 is a lot more important, I'd think the risk-benefit balance would suggest setting the cruise control at 70 mph.

He wasn't given a ticket for going 74 mph in a 70 mph zone! His ticket was for 81 mph in a 70 mph zone.

What probably happened is the officer saw a group of cars come into view, his radar gun picked up a high speed over 80 mph; when the cars got closer he probably picked the youngest looking driver out of the bunch and said to himself, "There's my speeder!"

It just so happened that the youngest looking driver was Chris's son, so he got the ticket.

Chris's son would have probably gotten the ticket even if he was actually traveling at 65 mph in this 70 mph zone.

The issue here is not whether 4 mph over the posted limit is speeding, the issue is a ticket that was given wrongly.

[jyl]

Originally posted by competentone
He wasn't given a ticket for going 74 mph in a 70 mph zone! His ticket was for 81 mph in a 70 mph zone.

What probably happened is the officer saw a group of cars come into view, his radar gun picked up a high speed over 80 mph; when the cars got closer he probably picked the youngest looking driver out of the bunch and said to himself, "There's my speeder!"

It just so happened that the youngest looking driver was Chris's son, so he got the ticket.

Chris's son would have probably gotten the ticket even if he was actually traveling at 65 mph in this 70 mph zone.

The issue here is not whether 4 mph over the posted limit is speeding, the issue is a ticket that was given wrongly.

I understand that, and agree that is probably what happened. I don't think he "deserved" the 81 mph ticket.

However, if he had been doing 70 in the slow lane, there would have been less chance of him being in that group of cars, or more chance of the cop noticing his much slower speed compared with the other cars, and thus less chance of him getting the admittedly unjustified ticket.

I'm saying, basically, that life is probabilistic and not always fair - you don't always get what you "deserve" - and there's ways to minimize the chance of getting slapped with the unfair stuff.

Later in life there'll be many situations in which staying out of certain situations will be the better idea, versus getting into those situations and then having to argue that he didn't do anything really wrong.

[snowman]

the last cop that gave me a ticket for speeding when I was not was in Asthambula, ohio. just b 4 they shot the students there. day b4 xmas, doing about 65 in a 70 zone. pulled over, cop asked what I did, ans, student. guilty of doing 85 in a 70 zone. give the cop $50 OR WAIT 2 DAYS IN JAIL FOR JUDGE. I paid the $50 and swore that I would fight any ticket, guilty or not after that.

Sir u are deceiving yourself if u think you can estimate speed. Go to the track, have someone record actual speed with a laser or radar. you write down your estimates, 10 in a row, try another 10 in another part of the track, no cheeting, like looking or knowing any speeds for that part of the track. get back with your results.

i bet that u will be over 20 off.

I drive a race car and I can't tell you within 20 how fast
i am driving

[Tervuren]

Also, does the cruise control brake for downhills? I know in all the odler vehichels I've driven with cruise control, it simply applies more power if the speed falls below - and does nothing to slow the car on a downhill. On some sections around here, you could have cruise control at 60MPH, but at the bottom of a valley, be going well well over that.

[David]

Story from a car club buddy:

I crested a hill in New Mexico and saw a cop writing a ticket. As I drove by, he got in his car and pulled me over. When he was writing me a ticket for 75 in a 65, I casually asked how he could know how fast I was going since he was standing next to the other car when he saw me. The officer replied, "when you've been doing this as long as I have, you can tell exactly how fast a car's going." I thanked him and took the ticket. I couldn't have been going less than 125 when he saw me!

[MMARSH]

Originally posted by snowman
the last cop that gave me a ticket for speeding when I was not was in Asthambula, ohio. just b 4 they shot the students there. day b4 xmas, doing about 65 in a 70 zone. pulled over, cop asked what I did, ans, student. guilty of doing 85 in a 70 zone. give the cop $50 OR WAIT 2 DAYS IN JAIL FOR JUDGE. I paid the $50 and swore that I would fight any ticket, guilty or not after that.

Sir u are deceiving yourself if u think you can estimate speed. Go to the track, have someone record actual speed with a laser or radar. you write down your estimates, 10 in a row, try another 10 in another part of the track, no cheeting, like looking or knowing any speeds for that part of the track. get back with your results.

i bet that u will be over 20 off.

I drive a race car and I can't tell you within 20 how fast
i am driving

This is my last post on the subject.

First, I drive a race car also. not to bad either. I would think you could estimate your speed based on gear and RPM alot closer then 20mph.

Second. your task to me about going to the track estimating speed, is exactly what we have to do to get certified in the first place and we have to do it more then ten times in a row. I'm certified using those methods, so consider yourself gotten back to. Like I said, I do this every day.

[masraum]

Originally posted by MMARSH
This is my last post on the subject.

First, I drive a race car also. not to bad either. I would think you could estimate your speed based on gear and RPM alot closer then 20mph.

Second. your task to me about going to the track estimating speed, is exactly what we have to do to get certified in the first place and we have to do it more then ten times in a row. I'm certified using those methods, so consider yourself gotten back to. Like I said, I do this every day.

I know, it's supposed to be a secret, but I've heard that they teach you guys to squeak at cars and listen for the echo. So now the cat's out of the bag.

I've heard that you guys get tested. I'm not in Snowman's camp, just curious, what sort of requirements are there for the cert. How many times, what sort of accuracy, etc...

Like I said, not being a jackazz. My dad was a cop when I was born and eventually went back into the Navy, so i have tons of respect for those in public service. It's a crappy job that I'm not sure I could do.