Speeding Ticket when not speeding. What now?

[snowman]

First, if you really drive a race car, thats wheel to wheel racing, not Porsche club timed events, I doubt you know your speed. No one I know of that races will estimate their speed. They will tell you that they were in a certain rpm range, as you can hear it and sometimes you can actually spot check it. But speed, no. You could go back and try to calculate the speed based on rpm, but you will be off by quite a bit, ie tire pressures, wear, actual rpm vs estimated rpm. In any case you will only be able to guess at a couple of points in the track where you actually know the rpm, most of the time you cannot even think of looking at a tac. But you are doing one better, you don't even know the rpm of a car you are looking at, you have no idea of how fast or how many rpm the car is turning, and furthermore you are not calculating anything, you are simply guessing.

I know you are wrong because I have tested these kind of things with real instrumentation. Stuff that costs 100,s of thousands of bucks, actually 100s of millions if you count everything, in a very controlled environment. Stuff that is a thousand times more accurate and expensive than anything any police force could even dream of having. I have worked on GPS, Loran, Omega, and other systems since the mid 70's. Its very very expensive and difficult to get speed as close as you say you are estimating. NFW you can do what you say and if they are teaching this stuff they should be taken to court and lead to jail for fraud. And I have measured the speed and wiggle of ICBMS to a fraction of a cm or meter per second as they re entered the atmosphere. I have spent over 35 years as an engineer, an expert in the subject of speed, position, location. I will bet all the money I made over the entire period that you are not able to actually do what you say you can. You think you can simply look at a car and estimate speed, you are simply WRONG. I won't go back into the technical reasons again because they went over you head the first time I mentioned them.

Its a disgrace that the court system has allowed such fraud to be propagated to this day. There is no way that with real experts that you could ever testify that you have estimated someone’s speed, just by looking at them.. You could even count, 1001, 1002, 1003 over a known distance and not be within 20 mph.

If you ever use your estimated speed "ability" to convict somoeone of speeding, you are likely to have convicted an innocent person. Even when you are careful and look to see which car is going faster, you might be seeing me setting up another loser for a ticket.

[MMARSH]

Jack

I know what racing and a race car is. I have two of them. Wheel to Wheel for over five years now Thank you. Your right, you win.

In the future If I have any other questions about what I know or don't know or how better to do my job, I'll look you up. hopefully you can explain it so it doesn't go over my head.

[KCPSG]

I didn't take the time to read all the reply's in this thread, so in case someone might have already stated this. However what has worked for me for the last decade or so..is to simply call the city/county the ticket was given in, call the prosecutors office (if the town is so small that they do not have a prosecutor...ask to talk to the chief of police) and say that you would like to plead guilty to a non moving violation.

you may be out a few bucks, however his liscense and insurance do not take the hit.

[snowman]

Originally posted by MMARSH
Jack

I know what racing and a race car is. I have two of them. Wheel to Wheel for over five years now Thank you. Your right, you win.

In the future If I have any other questions about what I know or don't know or how better to do my job, I'll look you up. hopefully you can explain it so it doesn't go over my head.

I have no intention of "winning", I just hate to have people receiving tickets based on what is humanly impossible. Knowing your true limitations can help temper decisions based on them. Sometimes what you think you see isn't what is real, especially with radar and multiple cars on the road.

[MMARSH]

Originally posted by snowman
Sometimes what you think you see isn't what is real, especially with radar and multiple cars on the road.

Like I've said several times, I don't use radar, I use laser. Multiple cars isn't a factor. What I see I verify with the unit and use whatever speed the unit tells me. Also like I said previously, I don't write tickets based on just my speed estimation.

I can't speak for every other police officer and what they do, but I've never written a ticket that I wasn't sure of. Never. Why ? because there will always be someone else right behind them where there is no doubt. I'm very aware of the potential consequences of getting a speeding ticket both from a financial standpoint as well as a persons driving record.

Personally I think everybody should at least show up in court just in the off chance that the officer doesn't show up. You have nothing to lose(ok maybe some work time) and everything to gain. even if you win, I'm sure everytime you drive thru the area you got popped before, you'll probably slow down. I don't think it's an issue of taking personal responsibility, it's called utilizing the system we have. Now if your going to get up there and try to discredit the officer or flat lie, thats a different story altogether.

[onlycafe]

sounds like revenue enhancement at work to me. perhaps more effort should go to apprehending drunk drivers than sitting behind a billboard waiting for the speeder. 'cause most of us may be a bit speedy,but not a danger to all. however we do have money, and i suppose it is easier to catch a speeder than a drunk, at least there are more of us to work on.

[snowman]

I happen to think that anyone truly speeding (doesn’t include someone doing 70 in the arbitrary 55 zone on an 85 mph 4 lane highway) should get a ticket. Usually easy to pick out, weaving in and out, tailgating, unsafe lane changing.

But years of cops picking off arbitrary people going the flow of traffic, in ridiculous 55MPH zones in the wilds of Idaho, Montana, Nevada have made me a zealot. Thank god most of these stupid laws have gone bye-bye. But there are still revenue enhancers, like near Oceanside, toward Escondido, that mar the reputation of all good cops. Then there was a chp that jumped out of the bushes, pointed a radar gun/laser, in such a way that everyone jammed on their brakes, almost causing a series of accidents on I5 just north of Oceanside. Any reasonable person thought the guy was going to take a shot at them! I called the sup on this one.

In any case its these bozos that give the honest cops a bad name and the reason I suggest fighting all tickets, just because.

[onlycafe]

if you want to read about a really bad place, look up new rome, ohio. incredible. thankfully, finally shut down.

[snowman]

Every cop should be like MMARSH. Honest, and giving enough break for speedo error and the like. Better yet just get the guys that weave in and out, tailgate, and are general idiots. There are enough of them to leave the rest alone.

[Rick Lee]

The day after I got my 993 we were on a fun run and I was second in line. Doug E was first. In a 45mph zone, Doug was way ahead of me and I gunned it to catch up. A cop coming the other direction lit up and did a fast u-turn, passed the rest of us and pulled in ahead of me to stop Doug. We all took off and waited in a parking lot. Cop told Doug he clocked him at 90mph. Since Doug had his son in a child seat in the passenger seat, his excuse that he would never drive like that with his son in his car was pretty believable and it was the truth. It was ME the cop clocked and Doug wasn't going anywhere near that fast, since there were cars ahead of him. I was just closing the gap. So yes, it does happen. Cop let him go and we resumed our drive without further incident.

If cops really cared about preventing speeding, they'd paint their cars hunter orange and run their lights when they run radar. But since they'd rather catch speeders than prevent speeding, they use unmarked Impalas around here and even their marked cars have very low profile lights on top so they are harder to spot. I have zero guilt about speeding and running a radar detector (illegal in VA). Speed enforcement here has absolutely nothing to do with safety and eveything to do with revenue. Trying going the speed limit on the Cap. Beltway. That's the most dangerous thing you could ever do.

[Tervuren]

Originally posted by Rick Lee
Trying going the speed limit on the Cap. Beltway. That's the most dangerous thing you could ever do.

But if you, and everyone else did...

I'm of the opinion - just set the speed limit at what Traffic flows at. But it is freakishly scaryfor me doing 55MPH on I-77 through Charlotte, Realy REALY haveing to wach my mirrors, which distracts my attention from whats in front. I do enough racing to handle it, and to know when to suddenly speed up/move lanes. I never ever try to block a trucker, they have a tough job, so I'll go a little faster so they don't have to slow down until I can get out of their way, otherwise, I'm fairly cose to 55MPH. It takes a lot of feul for a trucker to reaccelerate, its piddly for my little Euro sports car.

[Rick Lee]

Originally posted by Tervuren
But if you, and everyone else did...

And if my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle. The cops can no more slow down the flow of traffic with speed limits than they can make traffic jams flow faster. The flow of traffic is what it is and 55mph on the Cap. Beltway is a JOKE. It has nothing to do with safety and was implemented in the 70's because of the OPEC oil embargo.

[Tervuren]

Originally posted by Rick Lee
And if my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle. The cops can no more slow down the flow of traffic with speed limits than they can make traffic jams flow faster. The flow of traffic is what it is and 55mph on the Cap. Beltway is a JOKE. It has nothing to do with safety and was implemented in the 70's because of the OPEC oil embargo.

So go and make it a major campaign issue to increase the speed limits. So many peole are bothered by it, yet so few do anything about it other then complain. Get enough people actively doing something about it in your state(and that takes work, not just complaining on a forum), and perhaps something can change. Its not easy.

i try not to whine about a problem enless I am trying to do something about it. I work on improving other people's driving that I come in contact with, rather then complain of all the poor drivers.

[Jeff Higgins]

I haven't read this whole thread either, but it seems to me from what I have read that some of you may be focusing your attentions in the wrong area. The cops are not the problem. The contrived system of "non-criminal violation" is. The rules of evidence and mechanism for determining guilt are far different than in criminal cases, even misdemeanor cases.

The cornerstone of our justice system that sets us apart from much of the world is the jury trial; your peers, after reviewing evidence presented, determine your guilt or innocence. We are told that is impractical in traffic cases and, besides, we forfeit that right when we take advantage of our state granted "priveledge" of driving. It is a very tangled mess of trampled rights and expediants adopted by the state, all of which should be illegal. The cop with the radar gun is simply the most visible part to most of us.

The basis of the State's position is that it grants us the "priveledge" of driving. Hogwash. Our States are not in the business of granting priveledges; how they were ever able to fool the populace into buying that speaks volumes about the apathy and dissinterest of the people. The business of granting priveledges opens the door for a plethora of stipulations and restrictions on citizens' rights if they elect to take advantage of those state-granted "priveledges".

In the particular area of traffic enforcement, this is embodied in the horribly unjust system of the traffic court. No jury. No evidence. No witnesses. Just the cops' word. Like everyone, they can make mistakes; honest or not. Pride or arrogance can cloud their ability to perceive their own mistakes. In Washington, the traffic cop is an "agent of the court", and his or her sworn testimony is considered virtually indisputable. If they are simply mistaken, or worse yet lying, too bad; the citizen simply has no recourse whatsoever. The only possible arguments are concerning their training, condition of the equipment, and other technicalities. Their judgement and or their word is not questioned; it is given far more weight than the defendants' word. You are guilty because the cop says you are; guilty until proven innocent. The burden is upon the citizen to provide the overwhelming preponderance of evidence of their innocence. It is simply a mockery of justice; a true "kangaroo court".

Police officers remain the absolute worst possible group to determine guilt or innocence ("who will police the police?"). It is their job to apprehend and gather evidence. Traffic court has made them the defacto judge and jury as well. It's not their fault, however, it's ours. For allowing such a corrupt and lazy system take hold and grow. It's just too damn cumbersome and inconvenient for the State to observe our rights in traffic cases, so they have adopted the expedient of labeling driving a "priveledge"; one that we must agree to forfeit our rights to enjoy. And we let them do it. It may very well be too late to re-establish the proper citizen/state relationship and regain our rights on this front. Just don't blame the cops for that.

[Rick Lee]

Very well said Jeff!

[Chris Lovell]

An update:
Indiana has an program available for drivers with clean driving records where a speeding ticket will be "deferred" for a designated period of time after which, if the driver remains penalty free, the ticket will be dropped. Of course the deferral program has significant cost ($242) to cover all the administrative expenses of keeping a file open for 6 - 12 months (I wish I had that business).
In my son's case, he decided it was less expensive to pay for the deferral ($242) and an attorney ($250) than take the 6 year hit on his insurance which would total more like $2000 cumulatively. So in the end, he remains points free and, if after the 12 month deferral period, will be done with this ticket.
He still remains frustrated that he has to pay for what he considers a bogus ticket. But he feels better about this "not guilty" result than admitting guilt and paying the ticket.

[jyl]

Good result.

Has he reached any conclusions from the experience?

[masraum]

Texas also has what's called either "deferred disposition" or "deferred adjudication". The cost is generally similar to the ticket or maybe a bit less. It's a decent option to let the state get there money without having to take a hit on the insurance. It's unfortunate that you had to pay for the lawyer to get it. Depending upon what's going on sometimes the time can be as short as 90 days.

[gaijindabe]

A money game pure and simple. Folks are glad to pay as long as their auto insurance does not go up. The State as scam artist.

Jeff, very well done.

[Chris Lovell]

Well, no one is really "glad" to pay, especially when as Jeff says you are "guilty until proven innocent." And to John L's comment, my son has learned a lesson which is simply "drive at the speed limit and try to stay cool when a corrupt traffic ticketing system gives you a bogus ticket." That's about it. Basically, this situation did nothing to improve or restore any of our faith that law enforcement are "out there" trying to keep us safe and working for the collective good. We all see this as a money making scheme for Indiana (I bet it works great!) and a boon for auto insurers who can extract significant premium increases from safe drivers.