Middle Class

[tc-sacto]

ok, hopefully we can have a civil discussion....(yea right)

So from the Dems I hear a lot of the "empowering the middle class" speak. In Phil Angelides succession speak last night he mentioned this again and how he still would like to "see the middle class empowered...a California for the many, not the few"

So the question is what is middle class?
From where I sit they/me look to be doing fine. No empowering needed. The working poor are the ones that need help, but I don't see anyone taking up their cause...just the cause of the middle class.

From wikipedia
"As mentioned above another theory attempting to define the vague intellectual concept that is the middle class, states that only professionals and those who would otherwise be considered upper middle class are actually middle class. According to this theory the vast majority of Americans are identified as being working class while the middle class is seen as a modern petite bourgeoisie.[3] Today many experts and writers state that the middle class or at least those with lifestyles indicative of the American middle class constitutes only a minority of the population,[6][1] and is in terms of privilege and influence closer to the top of society than the bottom or the working class majority. In this case the middle class consists of professionals who are largely paid to conceptualize, create, and manage and therefore have some degree of influence of the workings of society and their organizations.[3] These professionals usually have incomes that rank considerable above the average wage and have had the benefit of an advanced post-secondary education, which also entitles them to a high degree of economic security.[3] This theory defines the middle class as being in the middle between the top and the working class majority in terms of power, education, and wealth. Recent studies indicating that the actual middle of the income strata cannot afford the lifestyle indicative of the middle class has lend support to the notion of the middle class as a quasi-elite.[6]




According to this chat middle class is $40,000-$100,000. I'm not sure people with that kind of income are that bad off. Other charts show middle income at $34,738. So when they talk about tax breaks for the Rich, their talking about people who make more than $34,748??? (Not exactly Rockefeller money)

Any insight?

[widebody911]

The 'rich' who were the primary beneficiary of Bush's tax cuts were the top 1%-ers

[m21sniper]

Since the rich disproportionately pay the vast majority of taxes in the US, i would suspect that they would disproportionately stand to benefit from any tax cut.

Beyond that, your comment is just a meaningless talking point with no basis in reality whatsover.

[the]

Originally posted by widebody911
The 'rich' who were the primary beneficiary of Bush's tax cuts were the top 1%-ers

Specifically, how so?

[Porsche-O-Phile]

$40k-$100k HOUSEHOLD is not that much money.

Try to afford your "average" 2.2 kids, housing costs, heating/utility/grocery costs, clothing, vehicle/fuel/insurance etc. on $40k a year. Good luck.

[hardflex]

Bottom line on how the middle class is doing is what they are left with when the bills are all paid....

[Bill Verburg]

Do you realize that if you are a middle class single guy making say $70-$90k/yr, your marginal tax rate is 40% , before the GoP(Greedy Ole Party) got ahold of the guvt. The marginal rate for a say $300k earner was around 38%, currently it is 33% for a less well off $146k earner it is 28%. That's what the GoP did for all you middle class guys. So much for progressive or even falt tax ideas.

[red-beard]

Back to the original question, what is considered middle class, at least here in the US?

In England, it used to be business owners and mover and shakers who were still only 'commoners'. It was more social than economic in nature.

Would you consider someone who is in a Union, and paid in the $80K region middle class or working class? What about a civil engineer making $40K? Are they middle class or working class? How about a teacher making 30K per year? Middle class or working class?

[tc-sacto]

Originally posted by Porsche-O-Phile
$40k-$100k HOUSEHOLD is not that much money.

Try to afford your "average" 2.2 kids, housing costs, heating/utility/grocery costs, clothing, vehicle/fuel/insurance etc. on $40k a year. Good luck.

I'm living it everyday. Not on $40,000-but not over $100,000 either.

Also depends on where you live. My sister-in-law in Idaho and her husband are in the $60,000 and the do quite well.

Thom,
I actually did benefit fromt the tax cut. Capital gains/qualified dividends in my bracket went from 28% to 15%.

So I droped 3% in income tax and 7% in Cap. Gain/Div tax. Every little bit helps.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally posted by tc-sacto

Also depends on where you live. My sister-in-law in Idaho and her husband are in the $60,000 and the do quite well.

very true, also your lifestyle choices

Originally posted by tc-sacto

I actually did benefit fromt the tax cut. Capital gains/qualified dividends in my bracket went from 28% to 15%.

So I droped 3% in income tax and 7% in Cap. Gain/Div tax. Every little bit helps.

I'm all for the 15% on capitol gains and dividends, why not on interest.
bottom line though most in the middle class recieve so little of either that it's meaningless as far as their lives go.

You got 3% and are thankfull while the guy making 2 -5 times your income got double that %, multiplied but his income, that's some real coin in his pocket.

[artplumber]

Bill,
You ever run into something called the AMT? It's not pretty. I guarantee that a couple making more than 140K/yr is getting more po'ed every year. Especially, if they are paying a huge mortgage and not getting to deduct any of it.

[tc-sacto]

Bill,
I don't have a problem with his reductions from 39.6% to 35%.

In fact, I wouldn't care if we all paid just 20%. If Bill Gates makes a gazillion dollars and I make $80,000, hey we both paid 20% to the common good. Not his fault he figured out how to make a gazillion while I could only muster $80,00. More power to him. Why should he have to carry more of a burdon than me?

[sammyg2]

Middle class is subjective and varies depending on who is defining it. there is no clear cut definition that I know of but generally speaking, take a look at sniper's pie chart. Middle class would be the ones in red, with an income below $70,000.
BTW, they don't pay much taxes.
The top 10% (the group I fit into) pays a heck of a lot more than the lower, middle, and upper middle class pay altogether. the top 10% pays 2/3rds of all the taxes collected while the other 90% of al people in the US only pay 1/3rd.
Your welcome.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally posted by artplumber
Bill,
You ever run into something called the AMT? It's not pretty. I guarantee that a couple making more than 140K/yr is getting more po'ed every year. Especially, if they are paying a huge mortgage and not getting to deduct any of it.

AMT usually hits when you have a lot of deductions, not me.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally posted by tc-sacto
Bill,
I don't have a problem with his reductions from 39.6% to 35%.

In fact, I wouldn't care if we all paid just 20%. If Bill Gates makes a gazillion dollars and I make $80,000, hey we both paid 20% to the common good. Not his fault he figured out how to make a gazillion while I could only muster $80,00. More power to him. Why should he have to carry more of a burdon than me?

I have a huge problem when my marginal rate is bigger than some guy w/ 3x the income

[m21sniper]

Originally posted by Bill Verburg
Do you realize that if you are a middle class single guy making say $70-$90k/yr, your marginal tax rate is 40% , before the GoP(Greedy Ole Party) got ahold of the guvt. The marginal rate for a say $300k earner was around 38%, currently it is 33% for a less well off $146k earner it is 28%. That's what the GoP did for all you middle class guys. So much for progressive or even falt tax ideas.

A single guy making 70-90k a year around here(philly) is HARDLY middle class.

That would be more around 30-50k.

70-90k per around here is a house in the burbs and a new car in your drive....ie, UPPER middle class.

For myself(and i AM middle class), i have definitely had less taxes taken out of my earnings since the cuts.

Plain and simple.

[m21sniper]

bottom line though most in the middle class recieve so little of either that it's meaningless as far as their lives go.

You got 3% and are thankfull while the guy making 2 -5 times your income got double that %, multiplied but his income, that's some real coin in his pocket. [/B]

This is probably because the middle class pays SO LITTLE of the US income tax, whereas the upper classes pay the vast majority of it.

The top 10% pay almost 65% of all income tax in the US(see my little pie chart above).

The bottom 50% of earners pay a whooping 5% of the national income tax.

So in that light, how CAN they see a huge gain even from a massive tax cut?

Answer: They can't.

[HardDrive]

Wait a minute, hold the phone...

tc-sacto, you have a supercharged boxster?

Do you have any engine pics online? A technical write up? Do tell......

[Bill Verburg]

Originally posted by m21sniper
This is probably because the middle class pays SO LITTLE of the US income tax, whereas the upper classes pay the vast majority of it.

If true, who cares?

Originally posted by m21sniper

The bottom 50% of earners pay a whooping 5% of the national income tax.

Answer: They can't.

again who cares?

Lets talk only fed payroll tax no deductions or dependents, just to keep it simple

$70k earner will have ~$24k in taxes taken form his pay ~34.3%
$300k earner will have ~$83k taken from his pay ~31.6%

These are the effective rates 34.3% vs 31.6%. Now consider that the first $20k is necessary just to put food on the table and a home to put the table in, Doesn't leave much for fun stuff or heaven forbid savings and investments does it.

A huge part of the reason many have no savings is explained by the tax rate inequity.

There is class warfare in this country and it is being successfully waged by the haves against the wanna haves.

[m21sniper]

Originally posted by Bill Verburg
[B]If true, who cares?

again who cares?

Besides me? Apparently you....you brought it up.

Lets talk only fed payroll tax no deductions or dependents, just to keep it simple

$70k earner will have ~$24k in taxes taken form his pay ~34.3%
$300k earner will have ~$83k taken from his pay ~31.6%

Neither one of them are poor(or even remotely close- well, around here anyway) or hurting, so i dont much care.

These are the effective rates 34.3% vs 31.6%. Now consider that the first $20k is necessary just to put food on the table and a home to put the table in, Doesn't leave much for fun stuff or heaven forbid savings and investments does it.

I live on under 40k a year (primarily because i dont feel like killing myself working lots of hours) and have a porsche and always have a few bucks to buy toys for myself.

I simply dont know where you get off crying poor at the income levels you are talking about.

A huge part of the reason many have no savings is explained by the tax rate inequity.

A huge part of why people have no savings is because people are largely short-sighted morons. That's also the primary reason so many people are in so much credit debt.

There is class warfare in this country and it is being successfully waged by the haves against the wanna haves.

I think you're wrong because all any "wannahave" has to do to become a "have" is work harder or go get an education(federally subsidized, thank you very much).

I think that most of you folks wouldn't know what poor was if it bit you on the assss....

Poor is growing up in a cockroach infested row house in a single parent home with no car and living off a household income of (at the time) about $10k a year, in inner city philadelphia, like i did. I pulled myself out of it(and so did all of my siblings), and there is nothing remarkable about me(or us) at all.

If i did it, anyone can do it. It's just a matter of doing what it takes, and putting in the hard work to get there.

Unfortunately, there is an entire welfare class in America that is more interested in the ghetto life and driving brand new Beemer's and sporting designer clothes and jewelry despite living in a (literally) $5k dollar decrepit row house in the drug and violencen infested hood that we ALL have to pay for.

Eliminate the burden they pose, and we'd all have a lot more money for go-fast parts for our P-cars.

Of course there is always the option of tax evasion...which most Americans do as much as possible anyway, so in reality, very few of us actually pay what we're 'supposed to'.

But in closing, at 70k a year, for what a single guy pays in taxes, he really has no room to gripe, cause unless he is a moron, he is living a pretty daggone good life.