The case for CC

[Porsche-O-Phile]

The average citizen is barely proficient with a toaster, much less an automobile. MUCH less a weapon under duress.

George Carlin said it best: "Think of how stupid the average person is. Now think - half of them are even stupider than THAT!!!" Scary, isn't it? Now think of legions of those people armed with deadly force.

Putting myself in a situation that might call for the use of deadly force, if I happen to have a weapon and a cell phone on me, I'm reaching for the cell phone first, unless the situation requires absolute and immediate intervention. Police are trained for this stuff - I'm not. The only way I'd intervene is if it was absolutely clear that someone was in immediate danger and there was no way to wait for assistance.

[red-beard]

Actually, most private citizens with firearms practice more than most police.

None of us know what we will do under the circumstances. We do know that an off duty Police officer with a concealed fire stopped the situation. I don't have the stats for Utah, but generally, only about 0.5% of the population have CHL and not all of those carry.

This situation shows that you are not necessilary safe ANYWHERE. Accept this, and take responsibility for your and your family members safety.

What if this mentally ill person had done the same thing with a car instead of a gun? Would it have been less deadly? It sure would have been more difficult to stop.

Do you people understand what a no guns sign at the entrance to a mall will accomplish? It will stop law abiding citizens from taking firearms into the mall, and mostly because CHLs will refuse to shop there. It will make it more difficult to stop a lunatic, since no one there will be armed to stop him. In some places, even the off-duty police are not allowed to carry where no guns signs are posted.

The basic problem is...the guy was a lunatic. It just so happened he used a firearm. It could as easily have been a car. How long did this go on? Less than a minute?

Under the circumstances, would I have fired upon the gentleman? I don't know. It would have depended on whether my life was in danger, what I'm armed with, and whether I thought I could take him out safely. I have never fired a weapon on another human. I would prefer to keep it that way.

[widebody911]

Originally posted by red-beard
Actually, most private citizens with firearms practice more than most police.

I don't buy that for a second. Going back to my car analogy, there are a certain percentage of drivers who take their cars to the track, but it's a very, very, very small percentage.

If this were true, I imagine there'd be long lines at the range.

[thrown_hammer]

Originally posted by widebody911
I don't buy that for a second. Going back to my car analogy, there are a certain percentage of drivers who take their cars to the track, but it's a very, very, very small percentage.

If this were true, I imagine there'd be long lines at the range.

Depends on where you live. If you want to practice at the range in Indiana you better get up early.

[red-beard]

Originally posted by widebody911
I don't buy that for a second. Going back to my car analogy, there are a certain percentage of drivers who take their cars to the track, but it's a very, very, very small percentage.

If this were true, I imagine there'd be long lines at the range.

I would not equate professional drivers to cops.

CHL holders are like the guys that own Porsches and autocross them

[berettafan]

Originally posted by speeder
Exactly. Everyone seems to be assuming that people with CC permits all shoot pistols like Andy Garcia in "The Untouchables" under intense firefight circumstances that they have never been in before(?)

I'm actually generally in favor of carry laws, but a shoot-out in a crowded mall is not exactly your ideal example of citizen self-defense. Would I try to shoot such a person? Impossible to say; if he was about to open the door that myself and a couple of stroller-pushers were hiding behind, yes. If it was out in the wide open w/ victims behind and to the side of him? Probably not.

The truth is that even if this had been a restaurant full of cops, a nut-case w/ nothing to lose and a shotgun could kill a few people before being taken down. It's the "drop", or element of surprise that he had going for him. No one is expecting to be shot while shopping in a mall.

Sad story, but does not really signify anything to me. No message/new laws needed/coulda-shoulda/etc...

+1 from a lifetime NRA member.

[Joeaksa]

Originally posted by Porsche-O-Phile
I'm sure the neocons will offer a "solution" of having Dep't of Homeland Security to require all shoppers to submit to strip and cavity searches before hitting the local J.C. Penny.

Excuse me? Its the liberals who want to de-arm everyone, not the conservatives.

Yes, the press and the liberals will try and use this to take everything but a dull deer antler away from the populace. It will eventually get to the point where we cannot have a steak knife at dinner because the liberals fear that someone may go crazy and cut another person.

The CCW holders that I know of practice at least 5X times as much as the police and LE that I know. The cops around my area practice usually shoot twice a year, while the CCW holders I know are at the range usually every month if not more. The CCW holders at my old job went to an indoor range one time a week. Everyone met for lunch at the range and it was rare that someone missed shooting.

[livi]

I would like to see every damn fire arm in the world melted down and reused for building a new real light weight Porsche model a la the 911R.

I know. Then some lunatic could drive it into a crowd of school children...

[SLO-BOB]

Originally posted by livi
I would like to see every damn fire arm in the world melted down and reused for building a new real light weight Porsche model a la the 911R.

That is one of the few anti-gun sentiments I agree with! If (fantasy "IF" cause it'll never happen) you could magically take away all the guns, the world would be a safer place. Unfortunately, here in the real world, and specifically the United States, too many guns exist to make "magically" dissappear. With that in mind, the only fair thing to do is allow those law abiding citizens that are so inclined, to carry.

Some of you, who normally seem to have a grip on reality, just don't get it. The "average" citizen isn't going to carry a firearm. Most states now allow cc. Most people do not carry. Simple math. The people that do carry need to qualify. My opinion-The majority of those that qualify have the proficiency to carry. They know their guns, and know how to excercise self control. It's a BIG responsibility and I believe those that carry step up to that responsibility. Comparing them to cops is useless. I know some cops who are good shots and some who are bad shots. Same goes for civilians.

I grew up around guns. I am very proficient with them. My personal choice is not to have them anymore. Why? Because I have protected myself in other ways. I live in a very safe area. I could leave a loaded gun on my porch and it would rust away before being touched. When out and about, I do things out of habit that limit my exposure to hostile actions. No, I'm not paranoid or always on guard. But I have a method of doing things that protects me and mine.

Also, I've been there and done that. So much so in fact that I became too comfortable with guns. My safety standards became too relaxed. That is a very dangerous thing.

I will say of the people that I know that carry-had they been in the mall and near that guy, given the opportunity, the cops would have saved a lot of lead.

And Todd-I've seen pics of your shooting so I understand where you're coming from with the "12 year old" thing. However, most guys I know hit what they're aiming at.

[SLO-BOB]

Originally posted by Porsche-O-Phile
Putting myself in a situation that might call for the use of deadly force, if I happen to have a weapon and a cell phone on me, I'm reaching for the cell phone first, unless the situation requires absolute and immediate intervention. Police are trained for this stuff - I'm not. The only way I'd intervene is if it was absolutely clear that someone was in immediate danger and there was no way to wait for assistance.

You sir, ARE the average citizen. Your course of action (described above) is tailor made for you. You can hide in a dumpster calling 911 while someone above average saves your bacon.

[widebody911]

MC Hammer would be jealous of y'alls dancing around the 'collateral damage' issue.

[SLO-BOB]

I didn't dance around it at all. You need to read more carefully.

[on-ramp]

Originally posted by red-beard
Actually, most private citizens with firearms practice more than most police.

reading this first sentence stopped me from reading the rest of your post.

thanks!

[legion]

Originally posted by Porsche-O-Phile
Now think of legions of those people armed with deadly force.

What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.

[Evans, Marv]

Did I hear correctly on the news today that it was an off duty policeman who popped this guy, or was it all the SWAT team? I didn't hear all of it, but I did hear a radio comment that we can be thankful more people weren't killed because of an off duty officer.

[on-ramp]

Originally posted by Evans, Marv
Did I hear correctly on the news today that it was an off duty policeman who popped this guy, or was it all the SWAT team? I didn't hear all of it, but I did hear a radio comment that we can be thankful more people weren't killed because of an off duty officer.

Right - this maniac could've killed a lot more than 5 people if it wasn't for the actions of this and other cops who raced in there to eliminate the threat. They are the real heros.

Not to minimize the tragedy of the people killed, but this could've turned out a lot worse than it did.

[JavaBrewer]

Originally posted by SLO-BOB
I will say of the people that I know that carry-had they been in the mall and near that guy, given the opportunity, the cops would have saved a lot of lead. ... However, most guys I know hit what they're aiming at.

Kinda like Jules in the breakfast house...Fonzie cool...

[SLO-BOB]

Originally posted by dmoolenaar
Kinda like Jules in the breakfast house...Fonzie cool...

I have no idea what you are talking about.

[Lothar]

Originally posted by nostatic
Well, there's a ringing endorsement of your local law enforcement. Sorry, but I'd have to say despite my range time, I'd rather have any LAPD or LA Sherrif dealing with a deadly force time than myself.

How far wrong? Let's say said private citizen, while trying to take out the shooter, instead kills your 12 year old daughter who was cowering behind a bush, not evident to the shooter, but in harms way for the private citizen. So private citizen misses bad guy, kills your daughter.

You gonna give him a medal?

Fundamental rule: Know your target and what is behind it.

The stats on police accuracy are generally pathetic and no better than most responsible gun owners who practice.

By the time the police or sheriff arrives, you could be counting the entrance and exit wounds and of course no one has ever been hit by a police bullet that missed its target.

You are quite correct. I have a rather low opinion of my local law enforcement. I have an even lower opinion of your local law enforcement.

[Rick Lee]

Originally posted by widebody911
I don't buy that for a second. Going back to my car analogy, there are a certain percentage of drivers who take their cars to the track, but it's a very, very, very small percentage.

If this were true, I imagine there'd be long lines at the range.

You should buy it because it's 100% true. I've talked with cops before who told me they get a single box of 50 rds. of Federal Hydra Shoks to practice with PER YEAR. Every single range I've been to in VA has substantial discounts for cops. Why? Because cops don't get much practice anywhere else and gun store types like all gun carriers to be good shots. I have shot at the NRA Range countless times with federal agents, local cops, gun company reps. and average Joe's like me. I shoot about 5000 rounds per year and I'm one of the lightweights around here. Since most cops views guns as just part of their job and not their hobby, you can bet most of them just shoot whenever they need to qualify. Again, I am a light shooter and shoot more than 100x per year what the aveage cop shoots. I'm not a bad shot at all and I do competitive shoots once in a while. Most of those events have long wait lists. You'll never have less than an hour wait at any range around here on a weekend. So yes, the average CCW guy is probably as well trained in shooting as a cop, if not far better.