Labor Union shakedown.

[cairns]

I negotiated with unions for a former employer. It was a disgusting experience. The union actually negotiated a wage lower than the federally mandated minimum (DOL W/D wage) in exchange for increased pension benefits for the employees. Knowing that these were food service employees- who had an average tenure of four months- and would then disappear- the Union in effect took the pension deductions for themsleves. (the Teamsters BTW). Our HR reps and management encouraged this.

These were the poorest most needy people I ever saw- who were truly willing to work for their money and try to get ahead. The Union- and the company I worked for at the time- screwed them. Their congressional reps not only stood by and let this happen- they negotiated to allow certain unions in and others out.

I don't think I've ever seen a more despicable act of business or government in my career.

I'll never, ever support a politician who supports the unions. Sorry Democrats, but the hypocrisy you espouse about being the party for the needful sickens me.

BTW the company fired me after I questioned their accounting practices. They're doing the same thing today.

[stevepaa]

You mean the Republicans don't you.

http://www.ontheissues.org/Celeb/Republican_Party_Immigration.htm

http://www.ontheissues.org/Celeb/Democratic_Party_Immigration.htm



The voters certainly did not catch on in 2004, it took unitl 2006.

[Racerbvd]

Well, as one who grew up in a Union home, my father was a NMU member from the forties and worked for them until he 70s (a Union Agent in the SE, same Union) When I worked in the ship yards while working through college, another Maritime union wanted me to join (I couldn't see working 13 hour days when I hit 40, yet I do today, but as an owner ) but I wanted to stay in school.

OK, enough back ground. When it comes to trades like plumbers, electricians, builders, areas where the Unions train, teach and build solid workers, I can see it, but why does a dumb azz bagger at a corner market need to be unionized?? Teachers unions are one of the worst, they don't help teachers or students, and the one in FL. even took a mortgage out on their headquarters to fund a Dem running for Governor a few years back. Look at the pilots union that represented the United pilots (a former business partner is a retired United pilot, and didn't have a choice either) the union screwed over the guys who already paid in and where living off the promise by the union. That is just plain wrong.

[SLO-BOB]

Originally posted by tabs
U JUST found this out.

No. I figured this out at least a decade ago when I decided I would leave the union and start my own business. I'm sure you are spot on re: the health and benefits $$. It has always been my suspicion but of course, there is no proof. I've also wondered how a guy who was a journeyman electrician and then made his way up to business manager, then local pres can afford a house on the lake but.....

Legion-yes, the unions have apprenticeships and train plumbers, electricians, etc. However, when times are good, they all hire non-union (untrained) individuals. When times go flat, these a$$ kissers are held over because they are willing to work for free here and there and are more than willing to compromise the union ethic while people who came up throgh the program are laid off.....because yes-they (the non-union folk) have no union backround, BUT are union! So joe consumer who hires a union shop to do "quality" work could very well get some hack that doesn't know yellow wirenut from candycorn.

[cairns]

Certainly unions don't support Republicans and vice versa.

Here's a site that shows contributions by industry:

http://www.opensecrets.org/overview/industries.asp?cycle=2006

Here's another look at the data by organization from the same site:

http://www.opensecrets.org/overview/topcontribs.asp?cycle=2006

Fact is there isn't a union out there that is even on the fence much less a Republican supportor. All lean to or are strongly Democratic.

As to immigration I think the conventional view (that Republicans don't support legal immigration) is wrong too. An opinion piece that sums it up pretty well in my view. Both parties are playing both sides on this issue- with the typical political hypocrisy.

http://www.speakout.com/activism/opinions/5672-1.html

[Noah Holcomb]

I hate unions, after working as an engineer in the quality department of a union company (the union in question was the UAW) I started to avoid union products whenever possible. The union workers would talk about how their work was better than the non-union employees in the companies other plant, never mind the quality audits always gave proof the non-union plant built a better product by a considerable margin.

[john70t]

My personal experiences with unions have been pretty lousy.

Went through the Teamsters strike in 1997 and they didn't pay us anything in stike wages. What, they were broke? The AFL-CIO finally had to step in and throw out some rent-money scaps(I think it was about $50/week).
The lazy-ass rep at our building was very much pro-managment, and even went so far as to say he "didn't have any grievance forms because he moved last week and they fell out of the trunk of his car"LOL.

In the IAM, I didn't see our local rep for the first year and a half until he was replaced by a new guy who walked around with a smile and a hearty handshake and then disappeared for good.
They took my $65/mo, but were much, much,much less than helpful before and after my work injury. F'krs kept sending me letters that I was kicked out for not paying dues, so I would have to remind them that injury dues were $3/mo not $65.

Despite all those personal feelings, Unions have been the only thing preventing the benny-popping Mexican semi's (you know-with the wiggly tires) from flooding our freeways, manufacturing jobs from dissapearing altogether, and keeping new welders/electricians/plumbers properly trained.

[legion]

Originally posted by john70t
Went through the Teamsters strike in 1997 and they didn't pay us anything in stike wages. What, they were broke?

IIRC, the UAW has a by-law that all spending is at the discretion of union bosses during a strike. In Peoria (where Caterpillar is based), they used to call for a major strike about once a decade. After the strike had settled, the union would be broke. Members would be losing their houses, but there were always stories of the bosses buying bigger houses or scooping up cheap real estate during the strike...

[lendaddy]

I've never heard of unions training anyone around here. The companies do the training. Is this new?

[stevepaa]

Well, it was through apprenticeships. My neighbor, a union stairmaker, learned his craft through the union when he was trained under a German craftsman, who learned his craft in Germany as an apprentice.


As for those who learn on their own. You would be hard pressed to find a significant number of self taught welders, plumbers, electricians as skilled as the union guys.

As for your welders, if they are not certified, we would not buy anything from them.

[lendaddy]

Originally posted by stevepaa
Well, it was through apprenticeships. My neighbor, a union stairmaker, learned his craft through the union when he was trained under a German craftsman, who learned his craft in Germany as an apprentice.


As for those who learn on their own. You would be hard pressed to find a significant number of self taught welders, plumbers, electricians as skilled as the union guys.

As for your welders, if they are not certified, we would not buy anything from them.

What does learning from a more experienced co-worker have to do with the union? Companies set this up all the time, how is the union involved?

[stevepaa]

Good question, Joel. I'll ask him what part the union played in it. I know they used to do training. Maybe not anymore.


And actually, most companies do not have any effective mentoring whatsoever. Even though we try to pass on our knowledge, the company gives lip service to it. There are not funds to properly mentor younger people. And if a near-retiree wants to set aside the last few months to catalogue his files and write down lessons-learned, there are no funds to do this.

[legion]

There is a union training facility for plumbers across the street from my company's headquarters. I know they have facilities in there for demonstrating how to properly install toilets and showers all the way to big commercial stuff. A union taking responsibilty and insuring that its members meet defined standards for training is a good thing, IMO.

[fireant911]

Unions are a business - it is as simple as that. Their primarily focus is on self-preservation. The attention and importance of the lowly worker is much further down on the list. Their control is continuing to slowly fade away. Union officials undoubtedly rank equally with politicians and used car salesmen in the ethics category. Those organizations are oozing with corruptness.

Moses, have you found out anything else concerning the requirement of your 16 year-old son to join?

[Superman]

Some of you guys sound downright balanced. Circumspect. Flashes of wisdom and reasonbleness. Did you think I wasn't watching?

Bob's posts certainly stand out in terms of both knowledge and wisdom. And of course....Wayne's. No, I'm not just brown-nosing.

And now for those of you who have asked for information.....and those who have not asked but need it anyway. In my location, unions are at least ten times more vigorous at pursuing training programs than employers. Indeed, employers resist using apprentices and virtually do so only when forced. Joint L/M apprenticeship councils build training facilities and maintain/staff them. Unions also create, through legislation, apprenticeship participation on public works. Usually 25% or 20% of hours. Demographics show that, even with these and other heroic efforts, we will be hurtin' for journey-level skills in a few years. When we will need them the most (Washington State must, absolutely, necessarily, engaged in some massive construction projects very very soon). Contractors deeply prefer journeymen, even though apprentices can be had for a fraction of the hourly cost. Why? Because direct labor costs on a large construction project are fairly minor (20% to 30%.....usually closer to 20%) and because delays and inefficiency and poor workmanship and poor decisions are WAY more expensive.

Yes, it's all about the benefit trust payments. Particularly to a union like Teamsters. Yes, union business managers sometimes behave inappropriate. That's not so much of a union v. non-union issue as it is a human nature problem.

No, unions are not pricing Americans out of jobs. Go ahead and blame this on unions, terrorists, liberals or sunspots but you'll be wrong. Affluence is a double-edged sword. Debt and consumerism and some other factors conspire to cause inflation. Inflation is not just a retail phenomenon. Those of you who don't understand economics and will never understand it, your best whipping boys are unions, media, higher education and liberals.

[Superman]

Another thing for some of you to consider (those of you who think George Bush is a brilliant statesman and leader.....you might as well skip this next part):

There is no union for CEO's to join. Similarly, well-qualified pipefitters and electricians can find handsomely-compensated work any time they like. Retail clerks on the other hand might join unions. One should reflect on what kinds of workers DON'T need union representation and what workers do. Then again, some of you don't see any reason why motel housekeepers and dishwashers and delivery drivers should get any protection or respect. All hail the blessed and holy Market Forces! Most of the conservatives here can verify that I've railed on this issue ad nauseum, so I won't do that again here unless provoked (go ahead, make my day) but suffice to say that I think there are more than just ethical, moral reasons to give respect and protections to the least fortunate and least powerful individuals in our society. If there weren't so many of them, I wouldn't say this, but there are many tens of millions of them, and their behavior DOES impact you. Those low wages cost (as opposed to save) you money and make your life less secure.

[Superman]

Originally posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts
.........In addition, we have a bunch of people who then are becoming "lifers" at Safeway because the job is a cushy one with high benefits. .........

.......We're rapidly falling behind Asia in terms of the education of our workforce...

-Wayne

Therein lies one of the main ingredients of the grocery worker thing. Grocery workers used to, in the olden days, be career folks. Not only that, but if you were willing to stay in your home town and stock milk for an entire career, there would be decent (decent, but not obscene) wages (like the current $20 thing.....c'mon, that's not Porsche earnings) and even better (still not obscene, but definitely comfortable) retirement bennies. Today, that industry is coming painfully into equilibrium with other industries. Labor is not going to stand still for that. They'll use all their tools to resist. I'm not blessing that, necessarily, or poo-pooing it. Just reporting a factor.

Asia and India (and some others, probably) are going to KICK OUR ASSES up one side of this planet and down the other. Education is the key and we're squandering our national security for greed instead of investing.

[Superman]

Originally posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts
However, on representation, I think the Republican party is a bit less fractured in the people they supposedly represent.

-Wayne

Absolutely no question about this whatsoever. We've been over this. The Republican party is considerably more monochromatic. Considerably. "Conservative" implies a narrowness. In reality, there is a narrowness to their platform. "Liberal" implies a certain breadth. And their platform has this formidable challenge. It certainly bit them in the last few elections. It is VERY difficult for the Democratic party to settle on a platform, because that party is SOOOO diverse. Again, I am dumbfounded as to how the American people could have been fooled into thinking that the conservatives respect freedom and diversity. I know how that happened, but it still is a major head-scratcher for me. It is an oversimplification to say the least, but Republicanism and conservatism is WASP. Liberalism is all colors, religions, etc.

And yes, this makes the tension between immigration and unionism very challenging.

Oh, oh, oh......almost forgot. Somebody mentioned union contributions to political parties. Interestingly, my industry, construction, is fickle. Without a doubt, the Republican party is an enemy of unions and working people and a friend of business. Please don't be so naive or dishonest as to deny this. It's one of the clearest, most easily proven political brute facts and the reason I will oppose that party. Anyhoo......unions support the liberal party. But their construction members....carpenters, laborers, electricians, etc......have gun racks in their pickup trucks, anti-gay bumper stickers, can barely sign their name and they vote conservative. Even though it is contrary to their best interest. They've bought into the propanganda machine.

[stevepaa]

Update on union training. My neighbor is a journeyman carpenter who makes custom stairs. He was trained by the union school, 4 hours per week for 4 years. There are two union schools within 20 miles of us which train apprentices in the trades.

Most homes around here are being built with non-union labor and he says he can tell just by walking by the site. The quality of work would not pass union journeyman standards.

[Moneyguy1]

The primary problem with a discussion of this nature on this kind of bulletin board is the skewed audience. Most here have never been at the "bottom of the pile" and in fact are in the "more comfortable" strata
of society. Therefore, they cannot, for the most part, identify with those who seek out a bit of additional compensation for the work they do that keeps the economy humming. Those who have been in that "great unwashed" at one time or another have a totally different overall point of view.

Yes, there have been abuses on the part of unions, but think of this....Contracts would not be valid unless approved by management; those people who complain the loudest about the difficulty of competing with off shore companies. Unions sometimes ask for impossible concessions. They threaten strikes. Management caves in. So, the "tension" situation that I have preached about never occurs....If the unrealistic demands are met, the company risks losing market share due to higher operation costs....everyone loses. If management holds out and a prolonged strike occurs, the company may be forced to close its doors. Once again, everyone loses. The solution is negotiation and not "the easy way out" which in the long run is never easy. Everyone, no matter if they are union or management, will try to get everything they can. The trick is to look forward and see what the long-term consequences might be.

"Lord, let me not criticize my brother until I have walked a mile in his moccasins".