Labor Union shakedown.

[Superman]

Yes that was a black-and-white statement and as we know, all generalizations are false (I love that saying). While I agree that a black-and-white statement like that must necessarily be false in at least some instances, I'm fairly prepared to defend it as presented. Even according to Wayne's subsequent remarks, the Republican party routinely and I would say without exception.....sides with business. So, the B&W statement is pretty true.

Your argument is that what's good for business is good for workers. An accidental or unintended,.....or at least inductively assumed.....position. Secondary.

On that issue, I do understand the connection. Industrial and commercial health produces a certain amount of prosperity. And some other spinoff impacts that are not as attractive as "prosperity." This theory that what's good for business is good for everyone is........also far too black-and-white to be accurate.

Yes, France and Germany have their problems currently. You two guys (you know who you are) are smart. You know that the EU has recently been formed and that there is currently some equilibrium-finding there. Germany and France are, comparatively, economic and productive powerhouses within the EU. Just as America is about to be hoisted on its petard by international wage and consumption competition, France and Germany are taking their lumps now.

You guys will probably never be convinced that anything but unfettered. laizes faire. And that any attempt to redistribute wealth or power will hurt that country. I disagree. Sweden is about as socialist as they get, and their standard of living has routinely, over the last couple of decades at least, been considered the world's highest.

And finally: I stayed out of this discussion, substantly, until about Page 4. The information I gave above was just information. If it sounded like I was hoping for a global political discussion, I apologize. I was not hoping for that. I was presenting information that was, so far, missing from the discussion. CEO's and white collar folks do not have labor unions, and there is a reason for that. If you don't understand the reason for this, then Bob's last post is for you. Labor unions are not for Porsche owners and Porsche owners very frequently just simply do not understand the dynamics of the organized labor game.

Grocery workers have historically had very attractive compensation and benefit packages. For reasons that can be explained and understood. By some. And that background is necessary to understand the current issues.

The construction industry is fickle. Their unions vigorously support the Democratic Party because that party goes to bat for workers' rights and protection. In striking contrast, their members vigorously vote for Republican candidates because gays shouldn't marry and somebody's trying to take away their guns. And this dichotomy becomes very interesting in legislatures and Congress. Conservative electees DO NOT attack prevailing wage worker protections. When they do, they kiss the construction worker vote good-bye.

[Racerbvd]

Originally posted by Moneyguy1
The primary problem with a discussion of this nature on this kind of bulletin board is the skewed audience. Most here have never been at the "bottom of the pile" and in fact are in the "more comfortable" strata
of society. Therefore, they cannot, for the most part, identify with those who seek out a bit of additional compensation for the work they do that keeps the economy humming. Those who have been in that "great unwashed" at one time or another have a totally different overall point of view.

Yes, there have been abuses on the part of unions, but think of this....Contracts would not be valid unless approved by management; those people who complain the loudest about the difficulty of competing with off shore companies. Unions sometimes ask for impossible concessions. They threaten strikes. Management caves in. So, the "tension" situation that I have preached about never occurs....If the unrealistic demands are met, the company risks losing market share due to higher operation costs....everyone loses. If management holds out and a prolonged strike occurs, the company may be forced to close its doors. Once again, everyone loses. The solution is negotiation and not "the easy way out" which in the long run is never easy. Everyone, no matter if they are union or management, will try to get everything they can. The trick is to look forward and see what the long-term consequences might be.

"Lord, let me not criticize my brother until I have walked a mile in his moccasins".

Excuse me, some of us have fallen and picked our selves up, so that dog don't hunt. BTW, my family lost almost everything when I was young, and my father had just retired from a life long position with a union, when the Gov. steppen in & froze his retirement and siezed our accounts. And as an adult, by my own actions, I've dropped to -0 and had to rebuild, myself. So don't think that a person can't do it themself, maybe a looser can't and that is why they need a gang to get them a job and hold it.

[stevepaa]

Byron, you and nearly everyone on this board is 3 sigma on the abilities and aptitude scale.
So those at or below the mean, you call losers. I really don't get it. You have used the brains and abilities God gave you. Most of the world does not have the abilities or aptitude of you. I really don't understand why you think they can do what you did.

[Moneyguy1]

Byron....Your story is probably atypical but I would take exception that anyone does it on their own. It is simply not possible. There ks always someone who offers a "hand up". Get rid of the anger. Not everyone is as lucky as you.

Any just why were your dad's retirement and accounts frozen? Sounds a bit unusual....

[tabs]

The Union has been very GOOD to my Cousins wife...She collects 2 pensions..Local and International as well as collecting a nice 6 figure fair thee well check to help her sail off into the sunset. All she really did was take the 5th before Congress.

Come to think of it at the end of the year I will be able to start collecting a check from that same Union.

[tabs]

I knew an old Mick that worked as a Teamster in the Grocery biz that owned 30 Apatment Units on the Beach in Santa Monica. Old Bill hated Jane Fonda and her rent control ordinaces in SM. She even bought a house that he wanted to buy out from under him.

[tabs]

Originally posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts
The wages earned by the grocery workers are higher than some earned by college grads. Trust me, I know this for a fact. T

-Wayne

U do??? And how would you know that Wayne? Pray tell...

[Eric 951]

If you want a good laugh, find the documentary which aired on HBO about 10 years ago about the Hormel foods strike in the midwest. All of the rank and file went on strike at the urging of the officers--the doc. follows the daily lives of those affected--in the end,this particular Hormel plant went full-time scab, all of the rank and file lost their jobs, and the union officers kept theirs.

[Superman]

Originally posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts
Please enlighten.

One of the problems I have is that unions skew the wages for unskilled labor, many times to the point where they are higher than skilled labor jobs. The wages earned by the grocery workers are higher than some earned by college grads. Trust me, I know this for a fact. There's something unbalanced in that equation...

-Wayne

I'm not sure what the question is. It would have taken more than impressive salary and excellent benefits to make me reach a decision to accept a career stocking Wheaties at the grocery store in my sleepy North Idaho hometown. But there were takers. Not a bad idea, as it turns out. The UFCW generally bargains for grocery workers and their compensation, particularly their pension, has historically been excellent. I wonder if anybody is suggesting that society benefits when unskilled grocery jobs are closer to minimum wage with no pension. In fact, let's just shape all compensation packages (except for you guys' jobs, of course) this way and watch America soar.

I'm with Steve, of course. Everyone pretends that all workers and all citizens have an outside horse on the economic carousel, and that therefore all can reach the rings and perhaps catch the Brass Ring. It's only the liberals who suggest that some folks are situated on the various inside horses, where the rings are eight feet beyond arms' length. Sure, there are a few rags-to-riches success stories to help folks pretend that the playing field is level, but we all really know it's not. When conservatives have to face that ugly fact, they drop the "everyone can succeed" crap and change to the "Well, that's the law of the jungle" stuff. Fact is, we can do more than just let the chips fall where they may. People in Africa are starving. We can save their lives and the lives of their children. But that would violate the Law of the Jungle, so it's important that we upgrade our iPods rather than upset the balance by helping. Sheesh. This theory that greed is an important element of our ethical, Christian way of life is.........not really even funny. Convenient. And transparent.

[Superman]

And then of course there is the theory that take entrepeneurs stop making money. That's one of the most amusing theories. Certainly compared to the Greed is Good one.

[Racerbvd]

Originally posted by stevepaa
Byron, you and nearly everyone on this board is 3 sigma on the abilities and aptitude scale.
So those at or below the mean, you call losers. I really don't get it. You have used the brains and abilities God gave you. Most of the world does not have the abilities or aptitude of you. I really don't understand why you think they can do what you did.

Not those below, those who stay. There is a big difference. I don't understand why they can't do what I did, it only requires hard work and responsible thinking. BTW, I was a C student, struggled in college (that I worked 2 jobs to pay for it) so it isn't the book smarts.

[Superman]

Relax, Byron. Nobody's suggesting you're all that smart. (wink)

[Superman]

The first nation to eclipse our steel industry was Japan, and they did it using technology and economies of scale. It had virtually nothing to do with wages, except that the staffing needs of our smaller, antiquated blast furnaces were much higher than theirs. At one point, we were virtually shipping dirt to Japan and they were shipping ingots back to us. That was cheaper then using our steel mills. This, and frankly just about every other commercial tragedy, was the fault of management. The same management whose signature goes on those ruinous collective bargaining agreements.

I would heartily agree that union representatives, like any other humans, sometimes behave badly. I would also vigorously agree that union representatives' agendas in the very unfortunate upcoming downturn America is scheduled to experience due to international competition......will frustrate management's agenda. I think it will be enlightening to take a good hard look though, at certain peoples' anticipated accusation that Labor will be to blame for American getting its ass kicked on the international market. Just like this crap about Ford being victimized by its unions. BS. When we get our asses kicked on the international market, MANAGEMENT WILL BE 100% TO BLAME.

I think it's pretty interesting to pretend that when profits are good, management gets the credit and when businesses go tits-up, Labor is the culprit. Making sense when you talk.....requires careful forethought.

I hope that didn't sound disrespectful. Heck Wayne, you're probably almost as smart as I am. (wink) Yes, I respect capitalism. I truly believe in it. Big time. Let me use another analogy. When someone says it's wrong and a big mistake to take resources away from industry in order to satisfy the needs of society......it sounds similar to suggesting that it's a big mistake to put a v-belt on an engine, drawing off some power to run an alternator so that the vehicle can have lights.

It is a very thin argument to suggest that taxes will take the fuel (which is greed, by the way) out of our economy.

[SLO-BOB]

Originally posted by lendaddy
What does learning from a more experienced co-worker have to do with the union? Companies set this up all the time, how is the union involved?

This is one area that I will stick up for the union. There training is excellent. An apprentice is sent to a contractor to work, however, he/she will attend union classes for 5 years to learn their trade. The classes are very comprehensive and as regards the IBEW, they are to be commended. Yes-the non-union segment does have a program called ABC. It's about as complicated as "ABC". Despite what every non-union tradesperson will tell you, it is NOT the same as the union designed program. I would say it operates at about 50% as compared to union coursework. Here in Wisconsin, even the Journeyman's exam is different between non-union and union. My test was four hours. The non-union test is half as long and times out at 2 hours. Anyone with "about" a years experience qualifies to take the state journeyman's test. You MUST have the 5 year apprenticeship to take the Union journeyman's exam with supercedes the state exam.

The theory goes that OTJ one would learn from an older, like trained individual who teaches the apprentice not only how to do the trade, but think like a union tradesman. No-not in a bad way. It used to be (and still is for some) a matter of pride. Eight for 8 and high quality was what I was taught. Cutting corners was not an option. If I didn't do it right, I did it over.

Therin lies the rub and my problem with the union. Unions aren't comprised only of "union" people. Among many others, I worked along side a sign painter who faked "paper" from Louisiana (no checking) to get on as a journeyman. He proved himself a horrible electrician but he was quite adept at unzipping pants while sticking in knives in one swift, silent motion. Presto! He's a forman. Sadly, this was the first in a lot of exposure to the "non-union" element that infected the union. There's much more, but I've rambled enough.

[lendaddy]

I was not aware of union training centers. I know plenty of tradesmen here and none have ever mentioned such a thing. Obviously it exists, but around here the only union buildings are drinking lounges.

[David]

Originally posted by lendaddy
I was not aware of union training centers. I know plenty of tradesmen here and none have ever mentioned such a thing. Obviously it exists, but around here the only union buildings are drinking lounges.

I agree. I work in the turbine shop of a large utility and we can't find machinists or welders. It's a union shop so we ask the union if they know of any machinists? They send over guys that can barely turn on a lathe.

There are no longer unions training machinists around here. There aren't even trade schools or junior colleges training machinists.

We talked to the local machinist union (we're IBEW so it's a different union) about a training program. They said go for it, we're behind you 100%. By that, I guess they mean they'll try to take 100% of the people we train.

I suggested we take a trip to Poland and Eastern Europe and try to find them. My boss says he's looking into it .

[gr8fl4porsche]

Originally posted by lendaddy
I was not aware of union training centers. I know plenty of tradesmen here and none have ever mentioned such a thing. Obviously it exists, but around here the only union buildings are drinking lounges.

I am on the management side of Union Painters, Tapings and Glazers. There is a 3 year apprenticeship program funded by the contractors. The guys go to school 1 day every other week while working in the field in between classes. The journeymen are offered free classes on special techniques but on a voluntary basis. These classes are not 'on the clock' so many do not attend. We do have semi-annual safety training which is manditory.

But the bottom line is I have to get what I can get and do the on the job training at my expense.

Overall, management and the local unions in St. Louis get along fairly well. Extremely rare that a worker makes a complaint about a contractor and it involves being dragged in front of the joint trade board. I have appealed JTB decision to the federal level and always lost despite being 100% in the right.

[lendaddy]

Interesting that the Orange County employees get 43% of their pay till they die. Here in Grand Rapids they get 100% of their retiring salary until they're in a box(including full medical until 65).

It's unreal and cannot make a lick of sense to anyone.