Porsche and Formula One

[Scott98]

I was watching the Turkish Formula One race this morning and noticed Porsche didn't participate. Formula One is the pinnacle of racing and engineering, isn't it? Ferrari, Mercedes and BMW all participated. It seems only natural for Porsche to build a competitive car to help support its image of an engineering/racing masterpiece.

I know Porsche races in the 24 hours of Le Mans. What "racing series" is that? It isn't as prestigious as Formula one, is it?

I know these are probably some basic questions but I'm kind of new to racing and was just surprised not to see Porsche in Formula One.

Thanks,

Scott

[Noah930]

Porsche has raced in F1 in the past. In the '60s, they were mildly successful with a car they entirely built (engine & chassis). But they pulled out, for various reasons. In the '80s, they were quite successful with the dominant TAG-Porsche engines powering McLaren cars. Again, they withdrew. Currently, the factory claims their reason for not participating in F1 is due to F1 not meeting their target needs (to reach their target audience). Odd, seeing as how F1 is considered the pinnacle of roadracing, today, and Porsche's built its reputation on racing success. And, like you mention, many other prominent car manufacturers think it's worth their while to participate.

But F1 is insanely expensive. Top teams are rumored to spend upwards of $200-300 million annually. Porsche is a very small, independent car company (Ferrari is owned by FIAT), and it's hard to compete against other manufacturers in the financial aspect of F1.

Porsche doesn't really officially race in the top levels of Le Mans, either. (I think 1998 was the last year the factory officially entered cars. Now, it's mainly privateers running 911s in "lesser" classes--albeit with some factory help--as opposed to the factory putting out a team of its own, gunning for the outright win.) Le Mans was once considered the premier race in the world (think post-war Europe). Perhaps it's popularity has waned since then, but it's still the premier endurance sportscar race. Again, it's ridiculously expensive to compete at the upper levels (for outright wins). So, again, Porsche claims that racing at Le Mans does not meet its marketing focus. More realistically, and for better or worse, the bean counters at Porsche have figured that it doesn't make sense, from a financial perspective. Too bad.

[Scott at Pelican Parts]

The Porsche engine that was contracted by McLaren and financed by TAG was very successful, winning the Constructor's championship in 1984 and 1985, and the Driver's championship in 1984-86. But McLaren chose to go with Honda in 1988 -- winning many more titles.

Porsche built a F1 engine for Arrows in 1991, but the engines were so bad that they were replaced in mid-season.

[Jeff Higgins]

To paraphrase an old racing quip, Porsche understands how easy it is to make a small fortune in F1. Just start with a large one...

Last figure I saw showed Toyota, Honda, and Ferrari spending $500-$600 million a year and fielding a "team" (including all engineering, fabrication, technical, clerical, managerial, etc. staff) of up to 800 full-time personel. This is to field two cars for what, 18 races?

Rumor has it (nothing is ever confirmed about F1 finances) that up to $40k of the price of each new Ferrari goes directly to the F1 program. Even at that, if you do the math, you will see it get nowhere near their yearly budget. They are heavily subsidized by Fiat, whi ch is one of the larget transportation companies on the planet. Literally into planes, trains, and automobiles, with ships to boot. Lots of government contract money goes to Fiat, and sifts through that big industrial filter until much of it lands in Ferrari's lap.

Porsche, while it has never been above exploiting government contracts, is just not in that league. Bit of trivia - the 917 flat twelve was obstensibly developed as an engine for a German army light armored vehicle, like a troop carrier. Even such audacity pales compared to what the big players are doing today, with other peoples' money.

[dewolf]

Not to many people can afford a Ferrari that is F1 inspired. But alot of people can buy a Porsche which has a racing heritage second to none. I would much rather watch a European round of Carrera Cup than F1. F1 is truly the ultimate in automotive excellence, but crap, it's boring most of the time.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

As cool as it would be to see Porsche in F1, the costs are simply too staggering to allow. I'm perfectly happy watching them kick booty in ALMS and other series.

[Scott98]

Does Porsche officially race in anything? Or is it strictly private teams that drive Porsches? What are the racing series that Porsche competes in?

Scott

[Zef]

It cost money to be there...and Porsche don't want to spend but make money...!

[Chocaholic]

Over the last 20 years, Porsche has transformed itself from an "enthusiast" focused company, to a profit focused company. Despite being the most profitable car company in the world, the current management team would rather profit from their past racing investments rather than make new ones. But you've got to admit. It's working.

This isn't intended as criticism. To survive today, they must build and sell cars that appeal to a much wider audience. The days of "race on Sunday, sell on Monday" have long since passed. Porsche management recognized this and adjusted accordingly.

It's not the boutique car company (like Ferrari) it once was, but it has ensured the viability of its future. A commentary on the times.

To success!

[Tervuren]

Originally Posted by Chocaholic

Over the last 20 years, Porsche has transformed itself from an "enthusiast" focused company, to a profit focused company. Despite being the most profitable car company in the world, the current management team would rather profit from their past racing investments rather than make new ones. But you've got to admit. It's working.

This isn't intended as criticism. To survive today, they must build and sell cars that appeal to a much wider audience. The days of "race on Sunday, sell on Monday" have long since passed. Porsche management recognized this and adjusted accordingly.

It's not the boutique car company (like Ferrari) it once was, but it has ensured the viability of its future. A commentary on the times.

To success!

I'd say this has always been Porsche's focus, but they lost it in the late 1960's and early 1970's. Ferdy kicked out the family spending massive amounts on expensive projects, so more like the past 30+ years they've been a profit based company.

Porsche only should be involved in something if it can win in my opinion. They are extremely profitable, and so long as they build good road cars, I don't care if they are in F1 or not. The rules and build of a F1 car are so different from a real road car its not funny. From what I've read of people who actually have both an Enzo and a Carrera GT, the Enzo is quick and all, but aside from a smoothly paved surface, its out of its league with the CGT.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Learn by looking to the past. Most companies that have made racing (not production cars) their focus have gone under, some multiple times. Ferrari, Maserati, and Alfa Romeo are three great Italian examples that have driven the company to bankruptcy thanks to their racing endeavors. It's even worse in the modern climate, and the money required is too much for a small independent company like Porsche. You can't knock their formula, they are the only niche sports car maker that has managed to remain independent and incredibly profitable.

[jjone20]

Porsche's commitment to motorsport has indeed changed over the years, from needing to introduce their engineering expertise to the buying public, to asserting their predominance on the world stage, to making factory-built privateer-raced machines profitable. And they have done a wonderful job of managing these different philosphies. The LMP2 RS Spyder is the acme of their involvement now, and it manages to dominate the chosen series - just as in the past. Porsche in F1? What for? What to prove? What profit to be made? Porsche is a manufacturer, and must manufacture to survive. I recall Enzo F. was once quoted as saying that his road cars were built to support his F1 projects. Porsche, OTOH, was and is structured the other way around.

[Noah930]

Originally Posted by Scott98

Does Porsche officially race in anything? Or is it strictly private teams that drive Porsches? What are the racing series that Porsche competes in?

Scott

Porsches (the cars) compete in many professional racing series, but I don't think that Porsche (the factory) has any official works teams. The closest to a factory effort are the 2 Penske Spykers running in the LMP2 (Le Mans Prototype 2) class in ALMS (American Le Mans Series). Technically, the cars are campaigned by Penske. Realistically, they've got the latest go-fast parts from Zuffenhausen. I don't know how Rob Dyson's deal with Porsche compares to the support that Penske enjoys. LMP2 cars have smaller motors (less horsepower), smaller tires, and lighter minimum weights compared to the "bigger" LMP1 cars (such as Audi's R10).

Porsches (911 GT3s) compete in the "lesser" GT2 class in ALMS, as well. Again, no official factory teams. Just privateers. The main competition are Ferrari F430s and Panoz Esperantes.

I'm not sure exactly what the racing series' in Europe and Japan are called. There are European and Asian equivalents to the ALMS. Not sure who the current players are in those series, but again, no official factory efforts.

Over in the competing Grand Am series (run by NASCAR) back here in America, Porsche competes in the topline Daytona Prototype division by supplying motors (the chassis' are built by other manufacturers, though), as well as the lower GT class with their 911 GT3s. Supposedly, though both ALMS and Grand Am have divisions for the 911, due to differing rules, it takes about 15 or so hours to convert a racecar from one set-up to the other.

Despite no factory racecar effort, the factory does employ drivers. They'll contract certain drivers to drive exclusively for the factory. Porsche will then place those hired gun drivers with selected top teams running their machinery (to maximize the chances that those privateer teams will do well).

[Noah930]

There's also a semi-professional series run by Speed Channel (World GT Challenge? or something like that?), in which 911s compete here in America.

And there are various Porsche Cup series' around the world, in which the entire field is comprised of Porsche 911s (I think in GT3 Cup specification?). Typically, these race series are held on the undercard for F1 races, IIRC.

[Noah930]

Finally, there are all the various sanctioning bodies (the groups who write the rules for each series). Formula 1 is sanctioned by the FIA (a French organization, IIRC). I have no idea, but I'd guess that they'd also sanction the pre-F1 Porsche Cup races, too. However, because there are various Porsche Cup series' throughout the world, I don't know how that exactly works out.

The 24 Hours of Le Mans is sanctioned by the ACO (also a French group, I think). I don't know who sanctions the ELMS (ACO, again?) and JLMS. ALMS is sanctioned by IMSA (International Motor Sports Association), here in North America. They have some agreement with the ACO to use essentially the ACO rulesbook and Le Mans name. So there is some tie between the rules, specifications, qualifying procedures, schedules, etc. between the ALMS and the 24-hour race in June @ Le Mans. While Porsche competes in the LMP2 class of ALMS (and is eligible to run their RS Spyders there, the factory has decided not to allow its cars to run there last year and this year. Maybe it costs too much. Maybe they're afraid to lose/not win. Who knows? Every year, a couple of the GT2 teams will make the trip to France, though.

The Grand Am series (that runs the 24 Hours of Daytona, for example) is sanctioned by NASCAR. Even though the cars and racing look remarkably similar between the ALMS and Grand Am, there are big philosophical differences in the finances and race promotion between the two series.

[CJFusco]

Scott - if you are wondering what the ALMS-series LMP2 RS Spyders mentioned by Noah look like, here you go. They are impressive machines to watch in action, and they have been slaughtering the competition this year (7 out of 11 overall wins so far, IIRC?)







I had the pleasure of watching the Penske Spyders kick the eerily-quiet Audi RS10s all over Lime Rock this summer.

[CJFusco]

Addendum:

Although Porsche doesn't bother with F1, I don't think many would argue that within the motorsports arena in which Porsche continues to be active - endurance racing - it has been far and away the most successful company in history... and this without really racking up overall wins until the late 1960s, when Ferraris and Ford GT40s ruled.

[Rearden]

Originally Posted by CJFusco

Addendum:

Although Porsche doesn't bother with F1, I don't think many would argue that within the motorsports arena in which Porsche continues to be active - endurance racing - it has been far and away the most successful company in history... and this without really racking up overall wins until the late 1960s, when Ferraris and Ford GT40s ruled.

They've only won (overall) Le Mans four times in the past 20 years, and not once since 1998.

[sammyg2]

They've only won (overall) Le Mans four times in the past 20 years, and not once since 1988.

That would be impossible as 1988 was only 19 years ago. If they hadn't won in 19 years they would not be able to win 4 times in the past 20 years.
I know, you meant 1998 but I couldn't resist yanking your chain.

For the record Porsche's 1st place overall wins at the 24 hours of le mans are as follows: (year and model of car)

1970 917K
1971 917K
1976 martini 936
1977 936/77
1979 935 K3
1981 936/81
1982 956
1983 956
1984 956B
1985 956B
1986 962C
1987 962C
1994 962 GT LM (supposedly a street version of the 962 won overall)
1996 TWR Porsche WSC 95
1997 TWR Porsche WSC 95
1998 GT1-98

that's 16 overall wins for Porsche in less than 30 years.

[Superman]

Formula 1 is pretty cool, but endurance racing is for MEN. Endurance racing is virtually the only series in which Porsche has been interested. Like the quote says, If a race goes on long enough, a Porsche WILL win. I'm proud of that. It's like driving a car across the United States at an average speed of 165 mph in 24 hours with only fuel and tire stops. No oil changes. No nuthin'.