Linguistics

Zeke · 08-28-2007, 10:46 AM

I started a thread about dialect in TV commercials you probably saw. It seems to have taken a turn, due to my ignorance, to the topic of linguistics and dialect.

I mentioned I wrote a paper some 40 years ago about the subject. In fact, the paper was about the various dialects in England and how they influenced and populated the dialects of even today in the US. I could tell you then what counties in England tended to settle in what colonies in N. America.

There were two conclusions to the paper: One that the various dialects provided for the wide difference in, say, New England accents and Southern accents. The second was that all accent and a lot of dialect was melded together as the N. American continent was settled from East to West to form Western speech as we know it on the West Coast. The last traces of "accent" were left in the Mid-West and Western Texas as a "drawl". There was even some postulation that the drawl was a product of such wide open space. Never proven.

An interesting "proof" of the migration theory is that when British people sing aloud, they lose a lot of their accent due to the physical needs of opening the mouth wide to sing out. Thenone accent the CAN be conveyed through song is that of a type of country drawl. So, nothing terribly conclusive.

We seem to have a worldly body of souls here on the OT forum, so I ask what is the difference between the working class dialect of England and that of Australia? Let's take the word beer for an example. I think I hear "beeah" coming from down under. How would you characterize the phonetic spelling of how it is said in a working class pub? How about Scotland and Ireland as well?

BlueSkyJaunte · 08-28-2007, 10:56 AM

I remember something about "the great vowel shift" when discussing Aussie dialects back in linguistics classes. I hear "bih-ya".

The Gaijin · 08-28-2007, 11:01 AM

The Austrailian accent is related to the working class London accent. It was the criminal element that was shipped out (my family some how escaped) and founded that land down under. Plenty of Irish immigrants as well.

ckissick · 08-28-2007, 11:25 AM

I've always wondered why Brits sound American when they sing. The idea of opening their mouths wider when singing is interesting. When I used to travel a lot, I found it very useful to speak a foreign language with less of an accent by changing the way I shape my mouth and lips. For example, French is easier to pronounce when puckering the lips a bit. And I've noticed that, indeed, French people tend to speak with somewhat puckered lips.

id10t · 08-28-2007, 11:48 AM

Wish Dad was still alive - he taught speech pathology at UF, specifically language development in children. Did lots of work with bi-lingual, accents, and disabilities (stuttering, etc).

snbush67 · snbush67's Garage

I think its funny how people from Boston don't pronounce R in words, IE car is ca and "I parked my car in the yard" becomes "I pauked my ca in the yad".

john70t · 08-28-2007, 09:51 PM

And conversely, Brits seem to add a gutteral "er" to the ends of some words without it.

red-beard · red-beard's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by john70t

And conversely, Brits seem to add a gutteral "er" to the ends of some words without it.

Like the girl over there, Linda (Linder)

notfarnow · 04:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snbush67

I think its funny how people from Boston don't pronounce R in words, IE car is ca and "I parked my car in the yard" becomes "I pauked my ca in the yad".

LOL, I was just at a wedding with a lot of folks from Boston. Lots of that.

An interesting note about immigration & linguistics: As late as the 1950's, when scottish Gaelic dialects were being studied, it was often done in Cape Breton, Nova Scotia. Accents, dialects, songs and folklore that were tied to specific regions in Scotland were still preserved in Cape Breton. When Scots immigrated in Nova Scotia, they often came as whole villages. They would uproot and re-establish themselves in the "new world", bringing its local dialect & culture with it.

This is in contrast to the "chain" immigration typical of the Irish, who would often come in a steady trickle. First a father, then a few years later the sons, the wife, then cousins... there was more dispersion and assimilation.

BlueSkyJaunte · 08-29-2007, 12:53 PM

All this talk of assimilation has me a little worried.

Amail · 08-29-2007, 01:19 PM

I've found that Brits will append an "r" to a word ending in a vowel only if the next word begins with a vowel. For example, "So, your name is Linda?" would alternatively be said "So, your name is Linder, is it?".

Same with French pronunciation, speaking the normally silent "s" when the next word starts with a vowel, eg "vis-a-vis".

snbush67 · snbush67's Garage

So here we go again........ ; So it should be OK for one using their own dialect and accent to prononce Porsche as Porsh? Rather then pretending we have a German accent and saying Porsha?

Sorry Milt dont mean to redirect or Hijak, this might be off the mark of you initial posting.

id10t · 08-30-2007, 06:43 PM

snbush67 - " I don't care how people pronounce my family name as long as they buy our cars"

Aerkuld · Aerkuld's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by milt

...We seem to have a worldly body of souls here on the OT forum, so I ask what is the difference between the working class dialect of England and that of Australia? Let's take the word beer for an example. I think I hear "beeah" coming from down under. How would you characterize the phonetic spelling of how it is said in a working class pub? How about Scotland and Ireland as well?

I'm not an expert on phonetic spelling, but let's see. My accent is English but not particulaty working class. I would probably say 'Bee-uh' almost making it two syllables. A working class Englishman from the Northen part of the country would probably be more like 'Bihr', definitely one syllable but with a more pronounced and maybe slightly drawn out 'ihr' sound. A working class Londoner would be more like 'Beeyur' , again one syllable and I would say that the 'r' on the end would be very soft almost like the 'yuh' sound.

An Aussie would be as you said 'Beeah', although would probably be more likely to just nod and point.

Was that any help?

snbush67 · snbush67's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by id10t

snbush67 - " I don't care how people pronounce my family name as long as they buy our cars"

Isn't your name Steve Jensen?

stomachmonkey · 08-31-2007, 06:13 AM

Was sitting in a budget meeting.

Co-chariman Jimmy was reviewing with one of our studio heads from Teaside, UK, Darren.

Jimmy: Hey Darren, what's this million bucks here?

Darren: Ugh Jimmy, that's stuff.

Jimmy: What kind of stuff

Darren: Stuff! Stuff is stuff.

Jimmy: Look, if you need a couple discretioanry $'s I understand but a million? WHAT"S IF FOR.

Darren: I don't know why you're getting so upset, It's impossible to do the work without stuff, you know that.

Jimmy: (reeaalllly pissed byt this point) GOD DAMN IT STOP F"N AROUND, WHAT"S THE MONEY FOR AND IF YOU SAY STUFF AGAIN I"LL CHOKE THE **** OUT OF YOU.

At this point the guy sitting next to Darren looks at Darrens spreadsheet and say's, Jimmy he means Staff.

id10t · 08-31-2007, 06:22 AM

Yup, but that was a quote from Ferry...

Quote:

Originally Posted by snbush67

Isn't your name Steve Jensen?

URY914 · URY914's Garage

Why is it that you can tell when a Black person is speaking even when that person is a newsman or women or very well educated. Very rarely does a Black person not sound "Black" at all.

BTW don't give me crap about using the word "Black" or implying that this is a racist comment.

Aerkuld · Aerkuld's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

...At this point the guy sitting next to Darren looks at Darrens spreadsheet and say's, Jimmy he means Staff.

I can relate to that. I can now tell when people have no idea what I am talking about from the blank look on their face, but they hardly ever ask for clarification. It took me a while to learn though, and I had several lunches that weren't what I ordered.

(Incidentally it's Teesside - relating to the River Tees, but as being as we are talking about phonetic spelling and that it does tend to get pronounced Teaside it seems appropriate)

Zeke · 09-03-2007, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by URY914

Why is it that you can tell when a Black person is speaking even when that person is a newsman or women or very well educated. Very rarely does a Black person not sound "Black" at all.

BTW don't give me crap about using the word "Black" or implying that this is a racist comment.

No crap from me. Last time I called 911, the dispatcher asked specifically if I was referring to a white, black, Asian or Latino. Apparently, to them, we all can fit into 4 classifications. I guess I'd have been SOL if my subject was a Pacific Islander, of which there are quite a few around here.
I remember Johnny Cochran having no "black" accent when he didn't want any.
But, you did say "very rarely".

Here's an interesting observation: my wife is from Alabama, but was schooled in CA. Her younger sister was born in CA and schooled in AL. Wife has no trace of an accent, but does use some verb transitions that are "Southern". Meanwhile, the sister has an intractable Southern accent. Now, how is it that a Latino or black student can attend an almost all white school and maintain the family accent? Of course, anymore, there are no more nearly all white schools, but I've seen this in years before.