Matt,
I disagree with your statement here though I am very sympathetic to it... I could have made it 8 years ago before I was divorced.

Marriage is NOT the ultimate commitment. You want to believe it is, but it isn't. Why? Because you can divorce as happened to me. The fact that it is "legally binding" only means it will cost you money, time and emotional PAIN to get out of it...but it does NOT assure that the commitment won't be broken. Believe me, after 19 years I never believed I would ever be divorced. I wish it on no one but I am crystal clear (and so is every other divorced man here on this thread) that it CAN happen to ANYONE. You just don't know it. I hope you never find out because if you "buy it" - as I totally did, it will rock your world. It did mine. I will never be the same.

For me there is no "final leap" other than the one I make in my heart and despite the fact that I tell you or her, no one EVER knows if the ultimate commitment has been made except the person making it.

I am as committed to my girlfriend as I ever was to my then wife. I would never cheat on her, nor treat her in any regard less than I treated my wife. Now, the truth is only I; in my heart, can know if what I just wrote is true or is BS. Same with the woman in the equation. Standing in front of a church full of people or in front of God doesn't change that. It didn't in my ex wife's case. I'm certain she meant it when she took the vows. I am also sure her commitment changed, went away, however you want to phrse it.

[QUOTE=Rick Lee;3464402]...while there's still a chance she'll change some more.... QUOTE]

Ya think? Never been married, but I'm in the process of getting back together with my g/f of eight years. If they're female, they're gonna change :)!

[QUOTE=KC911;3464895] She's human = all humans change. We are ALL the sum of our experiences; it is not possible to be otherwise....well, unless you're just stupid or something:D The question is; HOW we change? Do we DECIDE to stay together, opt to honor the vows we've taken sometimes if the only thing that remains are those vows?

In my case, I did not feel my wife and I only had vows. I thought we were still in love (she agreed), we shared a life time of experiences and shared memories, we loved our children - she agreed with all this. She just wanted out. How does "ultimate commitment" counter THAT decision? It doesn't. Its made irrelevant by that kind of decision. The fact that you're married when your spouse makes that kind of decision only makes the split more emotionally, financially, and psychologically protracted and more painful. I wish this weren't true, but it is.

so, looking back, even after 8 years, you have no idea why she wanted out?

the - No, I DO know but it is not easily explainable. It doesn't fit into a sentence nor a paragraph. Besides no one here wants to hear all that.

Here's what I CAN tell you: She told me she still loved me, she told me I was a great father and that she "wouldn't have had a clue how to be a parent if I hadn't known" and thanked me. We never cheated on each other and had great sex life except for the last two years when I didn't realize she was pulling away from me emotionally. The simplest I can put it is, she thought I was a good guy, she admired me, but the way she felt was no longer enough to her. Personally, I think she regrets ending our marriage on a certain level. But, she had mulled over things that had happened over the years involving extended family members and had added 2+2 and come out with about 112. I was never able to convince her it was otherwise. She felt bad for opting out but it didn't keep her from doing so.

When I see her very occasionally now (she is remarried to an older-than-me, nice safe provider guy) she greets me warmly. She wants a hug (I resist). I KNOW this woman. I've known her since she was 15 years old. I am POSITIVE she would like us to have sort of a situation comedy-ish playful, bantering, comical relationship (we share one sense of humor) but I will not participate in that. I am nice, I am friendly but I am not her friend. She wanted out, she's out. (yes, I admit, I still have some baggage)

Dan, don't think that I am downplaying your situation. I know that in some cases people change, ***** happens. Not all divorces are the result of a bad relationship.

I just wanted to do this all out, lay all the cards on the table. Not at all saying that you can't have the same commitment to your girlfriend, but the symbolism of marriage is important to me.

I'm with the though, you still don't know why she left a good relationship? Edit, you beat me to it.

You're absolutely correct, but from my perspective, men change and women CHANGE if you know what I mean. Of course I can't explain it any further, they're women. I love them, but I do NOT understand them :)

Matt, I didn't think your comments downplayed my sitch. I took no offense whatsoever. We are cool. I know I have baggage about marriages and divorces, I really do.

I TOTALLY agree with you that the symbolism is important. Pehaps that is why I still feel strongly for some people marriage absolutely is the right way to go. It was for my 23 year old son and daughter-in-law. Young, very in love, full of plans for their lives together. She is now pregnant and I wouldn't want it any other way for them. Part of me SO wishes I could feel the way I once felt before my idealism was taken from me. I mean "idealism" with the highest possible regard. I watch my two sisters in their 30 and 35 year long marriages (that have had problems too) and I wonder "why not me?"

I addressed "the's" question above. Since we've exchanged PM's before Matt, If we still had them I'd give you a little better explanation.

Pasadena Dan,

Ol buddy, sounds like you still love her...You and I know you don't think, talk, reminisce about people you don't like or care for. Anyway- my advice, Just remain being a great guy and thats all you can do about it.. Someday she will be sorry...And I know that doesn't really matter. Just keep being a good guy and time heals all... have a nice day!;)

Bob

You're right, in my experience. Actually, what you posted here probably IS the one sentence answer to "the's and Matt's question about the failure of my marriage. I didn't change all that much. I am fairly simple. The things I like to do, the people and family I like to associate with have been the same throughout my life. I like new things, new places, traveling, etc. But they do NOT change that I like the things I used to like as much or MORE so than the newer things/places/people I experience in life.

I'd be interested in hearing it. I have an interest in relationships, and yours is a really interesting situation.

Your paragraph on why she left boils down to "the way she felt was no longer enough to her," but that of course begs the question ("I don't want to be married to you any more because I don't feel like being married to you any more").

In your next paragraph you mention that her new husband is a "nice safe provider type" which suggests that's what she was looking for??? But that seems odd given that you appear to have been a good provider for 20 years.

Anyways, you of course don't have to answer anything to anyone - but don't think that no one here wants to hear about it! I think that's not true.

I'm always happy to listen, amateur psychiatrist that I am.:D

Dan, FYI, we do still have PM. You just have to click the username and select the option. Wayne's new "streamlined" vBulletin interface.:)

the - Maybe I am unusual that I am a man that is willing to talk about his feelings. Its not that. I know a lot of us schit on each other's politics all the time. I get pi$$ed off about the names we call each other's favorite candidate, etc. Yet, I've never really felt anyone here was intentionally dismissive of another guy's feelings, or unkind in their words about feelings. I just thought no one wanted to hear what may sound like an episode of "The View" or something.

The 'nice, safe provider" comment isn't about my ability to provide. Sure, we struggled a long time starting out. We owned NOTHING when we married. I GOT nothing when we split up...except my tools. The comment is in reference to her current husband being just like her father. He's a truly nice guy as far as I know. Now, I know the love life she and I had and unless I am WAY wrong, she misses that, possibly badly. he's in hisearly 60's. I knew/know all her buttons (hell, I INSTALLED most of them) and she likely misses that aspect of our marriage. We were kids, we developed our view of the world together, our senses of humor together and could make each other howl with laughter. All of these things are sort of "sepia toned" memories to me. tender feelings. We adore our children.

But there is a component to discuss that may rub some here wrong. I am hispanic, she is not. She always professed to LOVE how my family related to each other. Now, all of this is an oversimplification. You'd have to know the people I am talking about to know that but it is. My family is thoroughly Anglicized. We didn't/don't speak Spanish in the home, there is no painting of the Blessed Heart of Jesus painted on black velvet in my mother's home (I am exaggerating to emphasize that though Hispanic we are not recent immigrants, and all the stereotyps that go with that). We're frankly? Just like you white guys except that maybe we have beans and tortillas more than you(kidding..sorta). Over the years she began to struggle with the flipside of the closeness that many ethnic family's enjoy. If you'e not raised like that I know it could chafe. Yet she professed to love it. The supportiveness of it. She began to think comments werebeing made about her, judgements of her. We went on a lot of family vacations together, she stopped wanting to do that..I didn't like it, but I acquiesced. She had converted to Catholicism when we married NOT at my request, her decision. In the later years she wanted to go to a protestant church, i agreed to go and take our kids. Look, none of you know me. I have no reason to misrepresent. If my family really had judgement of her I'd admit it here. They didn't. they knew she was raised differently and they loved her anyway and because i loved her. That's how it works with us. Nevertheless, I did these things and none of them were enough. She had made herself into what she thought I needed and though she loved me she couldn't be this person anymore. She loved how I loved her physically and emotionally and how I loved our children. She loved that we lived up on the hill in the nicest part of the town we grew up in. We had it all but... it wasn't the right "all".

All this writing and it STILL can't convey all that happened. If we lived closer together we could go on a Porsche run, have dinner and a couple of beers and I could explain more but as is, this is about as good as I can do. Feel free to comment, i will not mind. This is actully making me think more clearly about this stuff than I have in a long, long time. In the past it has made me hurt but interestingly, I don't feel hurt now.

EDIT: I re-read this and it perhaps overstates the hispanic component. It was important but not the central or only issue. In the end, I couldn't be another person - hispanic or not, and neither could she. She had a LOT of family bagage too. She thought the grass was greener. She's a good person (I wouldn't have been with less for 20 years) but ultimately she was a shallower person than I had believed. Now during all this it didn't go smoothly a this may have sounded. Feeling guilty about wanting out of a good marriage she needed to invent reasons and they just didnt exist. She admitted that to me later but at the time she hurt me badly as only a person that has watched you grow up can. Some of that I cannot forgive. She should have just said, "...youre a good man but I don't want to be married to you anymore, I'm sorry". I'd have hurt but not like it hurt the other way.

Beans and tortillas huh? You can have me over for dinner any time.:D

Seriously though, it almost sounds as if she changed without you asking, then ended up resenting you for it. The swing of converting to Catholicism, then taking your kids to a Protestant church. Taking vacations with your family, then bowing out altogether. Almost as if she tried too hard to be someone she was not, without you even asking. Regardless, that's a real shame. It sounds like you had some good years together.

Something else that people rarely touch on when they consider marriage is their extended family. Especially when they live nearby, they can have a huge impact on your life, especially when you have kids. Probably the worst arguments my wife and I have had were related to my family.

I have long believed that once someone is in their late 20's, they're probably gone stay the way they are. Sure, I've changed some since then, but I was on this path from the age of about 25. Other women I dated in that age range have either taken a huge detour around 27-30 or I didn't get to know them until they were over 30 and I was pretty sure they weren't gonna ever change.

My ex fiance (from Mainland China and with no desire to ever become Americanized) went through a night and day change around the time of our break-up. She was 28 at the time. When I got to know her, she was literally the funniest person I had ever met. Hell, I would have been in love if she had been ugly, because hanging with her just had me laughing all the time. First DE I brought her to, her first words were "These cars all look the same....like white people." She killed me. The fact that she was smoking hot and filthy rich was icing on the cake. We never fought and the tiny spats we had were resolved quickly. Her dad's business partners and family in the US even told him I was ok for a foreign devil and he eventually gave her his blessings to marry me. One day she just flipped and I mean like 180 deg. She called off the engagement. Lots of headaches later, it was on again, but I was walking on eggshells by then. Then it was off again. She became an angry person with no fulfillment in her life. All the money in the world, a no-show job, great looks and no idea at all what to do with herself. Hey, even when I was dirt poor, I was always having a blast with my friends and hobbies. Anyway, that relationship died slowly and painfully. I still talk to her or run into her around town now and then. She's as hot as ever, but has no humor at all in her voice. When she leaves me a voicemail, she sounds like a robot reading a message. I have no idea what happened to her, but I'm pretty sure she's now the person I would have been stuck with, had the wedding happened.

oh, i could write a book. wait, I am...

Some people grow and change, other people don't. The old jokes says a woman marries a man expecting to change him, and man marries a woman expecting her to not change. But emotional growth takes work. Hard work. And few people are willing to do that. It really comes down to luck and attitude. You need to find someone who is in the same ballpark as you. If you're happy to cruise along and do whatever, then better find someone of like mind. If you're driven, you'll end up miserable with a ne'er do well.

My ex and I still get along pretty well, and I think she is about the smartest and one of the funniest people I know. But certain aspects of the relationship just flat did not work. And things cascade from there. I still maintain that self knowledge is key...know what is *truly* important to you.

A woman who I dated for awhile and now am really good friends with said she has a checklist of 10 things, along with 3 "deal breaker" items. Her current guy passed the 3 and went 8.5 out of 10 on the other. But she's about to pull the ripcord because the guy just isn't driven and doesn't have money, just sort of bouncing around. And she isn't a shallow person. I asked her a simple question: do you respect him? And the answer was "no." Well, game over in my mind...and that means that her 3 "deal breakers" maybe weren't quite accurate...ie lacking a little self knowledge.

Yeah, asking yourself if you truly respect your SO is a good barometer. I mean, aside from the basic respect you have for someone as a person and a close friend, I think you need to gauge how well they know how to make themselves happy. You can't make someone happy. You can only make them happier. If someone has no goals or has them, but never lifts a finger to achieve them, they'll probably be unhappy with themselves. And you can't change that. I know my fiance's limitations, what she's good at (calming me down when I'm upset, improving herself at her job after a mediocre review, etc.) and what she's never gonna do (learn to ride a motorcycle, repair broken things, etc.). I accept her shortcomings and I know she accepts mine. I've put her through all the tests and she passed them with flying colors. I don't try to act like someone else around her and never did, except maybe for our first few dates. If she hasn't gotten tired of my $hit by now, she either deserves an Oscar or she's the easy-going counterpart I need.

Dan, thanks for the post. Like many relationship issues of this magnitude, it is obviously very complex. The Hispanic issue, and the issues relating to your "outside" family (family outside of your wife and kids) - it's hard to imagine that was a major issue after 20 years. You spent a good deal of time discussing that, but then in your edit seem to realize it was not major.

In your edit, you also wrote:

"In the end, I couldn't be another person - hispanic or not, and neither could she. She had a LOT of family bagage too."

That seems to be getting to the core, but you didn't really expand on it. In the end, stuff like your "outside" family seem external, and therefore of minor significance. Her decision to leave, it seems to me, had to be based primarily (or even exclusively or close to), on the relationship between you and her. You couldn't be another person - what was it that she found you couldn't be to her anymore? When she was pulling away from you emotionally over the last couple of years, what was going on? What was your response? It seems to me (total guess) that the core reason she left is that as she was pulling away, your response was not what she wanted or expected. What do you think?

Your situation is so interesting because you seem like such a good-hearted, reasonable, intelligent guy (lots of the other guys here that have been divorced is uninteresting and unsurprising - what is surprising is they got some gal to marry them in the first place). And that you so successfully raised good kids, were married for so long, and your wife does not appear to be a total maniac or anything.

LOTS here to repsond to but I'll try to keep it short; already written too much and its not my thread.

ding, ding, ding on the observations that, "...it's hard to imagine that was a major issue after 20 years...". Couldn't agree more; but it was. Look, however I interacted with my family was the way I had always interacted with my family. Truthfully, if anything, I interacted with them much less as a 40+ year old than I did as a 23 year old when we had married. That's why I made the crack that she added 2+2 and got 112! Its not like any of these things -even if she didn't like or imagined things - were new. They weren't. BUT, part of the back story is we had separated just before our 10 year anniversary too and reconciled. Nothing had really gotten resolved, we just loved an missed each other. It is NOT a coincidence that it was just before both the 10 and 20 year anniversary that these things happened. I know here and in her mind she was pulling away. She didn't want to go through the parties, gifts, etc that go with these anniversaries. How much I didn't understand this at the time? The day after she told me she wanted out I went to my office and saw on my desk a card from the diamond broker I was buying a big diamond ring for her for our 20th. I didn't have money for a very nice engagement ring and she had always wanted a rock. I was going to get it -THAT'S how much I didn't know what was going on in her head.

The family thing WAS central but as in all things complex, stuff overlaps. Lots of overlapping in dovirce situations. Everything you do or say, or DON'T do or say "means" something. Bible verses get quoted to you, disparaging things get said about the other person's (mine) ethnicity - and those are hard to un-hear. Had she looked over at who shared her bed for 20 years? Had she ever heard her children's last names? I forgive these things said in the heat of emotion, but I have not forgotten them.

the - I couldn't be a non-hispanic person with the family connected-ness that that meant in HER family (none) - I would not be me without my ethnicity - it doesn't wash off, my religion, my family, etc. Its all part of the things she loved, the way I was passionate about her, the way I raised our kids, on and on.

All this verbiage proves is that marriages don't have to have cheating, beating, drugs, drink, kids, money or a host of others things present to ultimately fail. Marriages DO work and for lots of people. Unfortuantley, marriages do NOT work and for lots of people too - even though we want to think we'll be in the "work" crowd, it ain't necessrily so.

the- Kind observations about my personality, thank you. Let me revise the old saying, "I wish I could be half the person my dog and "the" of the PPOT board thinks I am":D