Formula 1 nuttiness - Mclaren stripped of 2007 points

[Dennis Kalma]

I just can't imagine how this will work. What happens if Mclaren comes up with the same idea as Ferrari? Is it automatically presumed that they stole it from Ferrari? What happens if Ferrari challenges some aspect, do they get to look at the whole car just to prove their idea is not embedded?

Who does the fine enrich? Will it be divvied up amongst the teams, with Ferrari being the major beneficiary or is this just more cash for Max and Bernie?

Personally, if i were Ron, I would be telling the team that this is the time to beat the living crap out of Ferrari....let's go for a Mclaren 1-2 at all the remaining races. Beat them on the track.....

D.

[scottmandue]

Originally Posted by cairns

The FIA has made a mountain out of a molehill and seriously diminished the sport. What BS.

Exactly!

Why all the Ferrari hating going on here?

Anyone else find it ironic that as F1 drivers are moving to NASCAR F1 is becoming more like NASCAR?

In the future all racing will be NASCAR...

[scottmandue]

Originally Posted by Dennis Kalma

Personally, if i were Ron, I would be telling the team that this is the time to beat the living crap out of Ferrari....let's go for a Mclaren 1-2 at all the remaining races. Beat them on the track.....

D.

Uh... isn't that kind of like the idea?

[w21055]

Originally Posted by Dennis Kalma

I just can't imagine how this will work. What happens if Mclaren comes up with the same idea as Ferrari? Is it automatically presumed that they stole it from Ferrari? What happens if Ferrari challenges some aspect, do they get to look at the whole car just to prove their idea is not embedded?

Who does the fine enrich? Will it be divvied up amongst the teams, with Ferrari being the major beneficiary or is this just more cash for Max and Bernie?

Personally, if i were Ron, I would be telling the team that this is the time to beat the living crap out of Ferrari....let's go for a Mclaren 1-2 at all the remaining races. Beat them on the track.....

D.

OR you protest by holding the team out of the races. They have nothing to gain as a team. I am with Chris as the FIA is ruining the sport and Bernie is a pompous you know what. I went to the USGP this year for the first time with my son and we had a blast, little did I know it would be the last (for now) in the US.

[David]

During the last race, the anouncers were saying the McLaren drivers were discussing the Ferrari setups during testing, so it wasn't just one McLaren employee using the info.

It sounds like the fine is $100M minus what McLaren loses by not having constructor points. Since they keep award payments very secret, we don't know what that is, but I suspect it's a good portion of the $100M.

[sammyg2]

Mclaren got caight with their hand in the cookie jar stealling cookies that ferrari spent millions developing.
Not only should the be banned from the sport for 5 years, those responsible should be thrown in prison for industrial espionage.

Hamiltion and alonso should be stripped off all points earned while driving a car developed through stealing and cheating. They didn't earn any of those points, they stole them.

Don't any of the "more emotional types" out there think it's strange that Mclaren went from a distand third last year to total dominance this year?
Heck of a coincidence. More likely cheating.

[Dennis Kalma]

Originally Posted by scottmandue

Uh... isn't that kind of like the idea?

It is....but like any sort of endeavour, there is the one where you want to win really badly....

...and then there is the one where you put all your energy and soul into just beating the other guy...

I am hoping for the latter....

D.

[Dottore]

Not sure what the outrage is about.

If Airbus was found in possession of a 780 page Confidential Boeing performance manual what would your view be?

This appears to be theft of intellectual property and corporate espionage - plain and simple.

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

Mclaren got caight with their hand in the cookie jar stealling cookies that ferrari spent millions developing.
Not only should the be banned from the sport for 5 years, those responsible should be thrown in prison for industrial espionage.

Hamiltion and alonso should be stripped off all points earned while driving a car developed through stealing and cheating. They didn't earn any of those points, they stole them.

Don't any of the "more emotional types" out there think it's strange that Mclaren went from a distand third last year to total dominance this year?
Heck of a coincidence. More likely cheating.

Ahhh, your proof is? Please present proof of the above then its worth looking at...

[Dennis Kalma]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

Mclaren got caight with their hand in the cookie jar stealling cookies that ferrari spent millions developing.
Not only should the be banned from the sport for 5 years, those responsible should be thrown in prison for industrial espionage.

...yeah, the speed Raikkonen showed last year was all faked....they couldn't have possibly been working on reliability and speed this year...only Ferrari can do that of course....

Hamiltion and alonso should be stripped off all points earned while driving a car developed through stealing and cheating. They didn't earn any of those points, they stole them.

And their driving didn't get them anywhere? Accusing the drivers of cheating on a design aspect of cars is just foolishly flawed...

Don't any of the "more emotional types" out there think it's strange that Mclaren went from a distand third last year to total dominance this year?
Heck of a coincidence. More likely cheating.

Yeah, Mclaren has never been a contender....i mean, they and Spyker/Jordan always were the same sort of pace, come on....

And as for total dominance, how many wins does Massa/Raikkonen have this year....seems like about half....

[Dennis Kalma]

Originally Posted by Dottore

Not sure what the outrage is about.

If Airbus was found in possession of a 780 page Confidential Boeing performance manual what would your view be?

This appears to be theft of intellectual property and corporate espionage - plain and simple.

I respectfully disagree...having been involved with corporate information for a while.

Stuff gets exchanged all the time, one guy knows another and they talk. People move jobs and take things they shouldn't take....and use them. It happens.

The job of management is to deal with it as soon as they become aware that this belongs to someone else.

Return the documents to the owner.
Fire the offending guys.
Get back to work

Seems to me that is what RD did....and Formula 1 is notorious for checking out the other guy as far as possible. All the spy cameras, timing, radio monitoring....not necessarily IP if you can hear about it or see it....

D.

[w21055]

Originally Posted by Dennis Kalma

Yeah, Mclaren has never been a contender....i mean, they and Spyker/Jordan always were the same sort of pace, come on....

And as for total dominance, how many wins does Massa/Raikkonen have this year....seems like about half....

And last year they had engine and mechanical issues not aero issue. Also they had JPM who was pretty good at wrecking both himself and anyone close by be it Mclaren driver or whoever.
Mclaren made a jump up because Renault have not adjusted to the tire change (they loved Michelin's remember) and Mclaren have 2 pretty good drivers while Renualt and Ferrari had to reload with the drivers. And rememebr at the beginning of the year no one was that happy with Kimi at Ferrari.
So you can not paint it as Mclaren cheated and now they are a front runner.
I meant to post the entire qoute so I agree with Dennis.

[Dottore]

Originally Posted by Dennis Kalma

I respectfully disagree...having been involved with corporate information for a while.

Stuff gets exchanged all the time, one guy knows another and they talk. People move jobs and take things they shouldn't take....and use them. It happens.


Seems to me that is what RD did....and Formula 1 is notorious for checking out the other guy as far as possible. All the spy cameras, timing, radio monitoring....not necessarily IP if you can hear about it or see it....

D.

But a 780 page Confidential Ferrari Performance Manual??? That goes beyond taking a peek, spy cameras or radio monitoring.

Of course much depends on how the manual was obtained - but judging from the severity of the penalty it seems clear that McLaren was very proactive in obtaining the manual. In other words the severity of the penalty clearly points to some serious espionage and theft of proprietary information.

[scottmandue]

I did find it odd the McLaren suddenly became so dominate this season... however Renault just fell off the map so I could just be coincidence.

Did Ferrari, Renault, and Mclaren all start with new cars this season?

BMW seems to be gaining some momentum, it would be nice to see another manufacturer in the fight to win some races.

[sammyg2]

Proof? How about Team Mclaren's own admissions?
I suppose they were lying when they admitted they had the stolen information.
Now why in the world would they say that if it weren't true?

And I suppose, having all that stolen information about their #1 competitor's cars and set-up, they might choose not to use it. Sure.......

On this planet in this universe, they were guilty as charged. Maybe in the bizzaro universe it happened the other way around.

[Craig 930 RS]

"The offence must be considerably larger than has been projected either by the governing body or the media "

Sir Jackie Stewart
-------
Absolutely.
I'd bet that there were significant usages of Ferrari data in the McLaren car, and/or knowledge by the drivers/team that the data was being used.
Who knows if we will ever learn 100% of the things learned....
*******
In a way, the penalty may be a bit weak. The drivers can still win the title "for McLaren".
What an out. IMO the drivers' championship carries more weight than the constructor's, anyway.
But I can see the avoidance of penalizing the drivers -

[sammyg2]

"However, due to the exceptional circumstances in which the FIA gave the team's drivers an immunity in return for providing evidence, there is no penalty in regards to drivers' points."


Sooooooo, Hammy and Alonso dropped a dime on their own team members to save their points? that'll go over big


One thing is for sure, we will not see Hamilton or Alonso on the podium again this year.
cool.

[livi]

F1 needs more cow bell and a scandal of this magnitude serves that purpose well. Itīs completely blown out of proportion, not least by speculating media of all sort.

Pity for the drivers and team mates who are into it for the sake of the sport, not only for the money and publicity.

[Aerkuld]

Originally Posted by cairns

...Heck if I were Ron I'd take that little weasel Bernie outside and beat the living ***** out of him. Then go after Mosley with a club...

We used to use a paraphrase of a magazine article to refer to Ron as "The Hardest Bastard if F1" - this might be quite fitting. You would not want to mess with the guy IMO.
(Hard - meaning tough and uncompromising in this instance)

In reference to sammyg's comments, it isn't as if McLaren stole the information from Ferrari, it was handed to them by a memeber of the accusing team. If you were Ferrari and wanted to get at your main rival and, to be honest, only serious threat to dominance then what better way to do it than to send something to them then accuse them of having it. It all seems a bit too convinient to me.
If you honestly think that Ferrari are totally innocent then you are insane. You would only need to ask around a F1 paddock to hear stories of engines that disappear overnight from Ferrari's rivals at Italian races only to reappear the following morning with signs of disassembly. Or fuel being unloaded behind the Ferrari garage AFTER the FIA had taken fuel samples from the teams supply. The list of stories would be endless. They are guilty as hell, but get preferential treatment from the governing body. EVERYONE within F1 is sure of this, it isn't as if it's secret.

[sammyg2]

I must be insane then. Yopu are talking about rumors and stories and they are exactly that. Made up, BS and F1 urban legends. No truth to them no matter how much you wish they were true.

Are you really suggesting that ferrari gave Mclaren the infomation so that they could frame Mclaren?
LOL, that's good. real good. Sounds like something George Costanza would come up with.
Go ahead and twist it any way that makes you feel better.