Formula 1 nuttiness - Mclaren stripped of 2007 points

[legion]

Someone calls you up and says: "Here are next week's lottery numbers."

Do you ignore them, or try to find out if they are right (by playing the numbers)?

[pwd72s]

Originally Posted by legion

Yep. I'm just about done with F1. First no U.S. Grand Prix (a big FU America from the FIA), now this.

\
GO! #16! NASCAR, I mean. I like #20 as well. That said, can't wait to go to the Reno open pool tounament... I'm gonna back a guy...

[Craig 930 RS]

Serious?

Hard to compare a game of chance to a document of engineering data.

[legion]

Originally Posted by Craig 930 RS

Serious?

Hard to compare a game of chance to a document of engineering data.

How did McLaren know the data they were fed was right?

[Craig 930 RS]

Doesn't matter. Don't accept obviously stolen property.

[Dottore]

Originally Posted by 450knotOffice

I find it a bit amazing that so many of us here feel that such an injustice was done. Were any of us actually at any of the hearings? My take is that if the FIA felt the need to exclude them from the constructors championship and fine them the absolutely huge sum of $100 million, then there was more than likely very concrete, damning evidence.

By the way, I take any comments and opinions from fans that live in the UK with a grain of salt. Of course they're biased. PlanetF1 is a UK website and they are heavily slanted toward McLaren, and it's obvious.

Exactly the right points.

Trade secrets, proprietary information, intellectual property, know how....whatever you choose to call it...property belonging to Ferrari was found in the hands of McLaren.

I think the severity of the penalty handed out reflects (a) how that property got into McLaren's hands; and, (b) McLaren's denials and cover-ups about this.

But time will tell.

[cashflyer]

To paraphrase another Pelican's sig line: Scandal is to F1 what yellow flags are to NASCAR.




Seriously, though... with all this going on right now, I've decided not to field my F1 team next year.

[Joeaksa]

Really surprised that no one has updated this.

Bombshell from SpeedTV this morning during the Spa practice session was that Ferdinando Alonzo's career is effectively over... Its been pretty much confirmed that Alonzo was trying to blackmail McLaren into making him the lead driver for good, and firing Hamilton effective immediately, replacing him after this race. If McLaren did not do this then he would turn over documents and emails to the FIA that would evidently harm McLaren. How he got these is a good question but most are saying that they were between Alonzo and Pedro de la Rosa, the McLaren test driver.

The commentators went on to say that if this is really true that no one will hire Alonzo again, and that not one mechanic or engineer will ever touch a car that he is driving.

This is getting very interesting... and to date no one has proven that McLaren used even one iota of information of the data from the Ferarri document.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

More on the issue...

September 12, 2007
McLaren facing large dossier of new evidence in spying scandal
Edward Gorman, Motor Racing Correspondent

The case against Lewis Hamilton’s Formula One team, McLaren Mercedes, over allegations that they have cheated this season by using secret technical information stolen from Ferrari consists of a large body of new evidence running to 166 pages in length, The Times has learnt.

As McLaren prepare for their appearance before the FIA’s World Motor Sport Council (WMSC) in Paris tomorrow, it has also become clear that the apparent “amnesty” offered to McLaren’s drivers in return for their cooperation in the FIA’s investigation may not save them from having points docked as part of the team’s punishment.

The dossier of new evidence collected by the FIA is thought to centre not just on e-mail traffic between the McLaren test driver, Pedro De La Rosa, and Hamilton’s teammate, Fernando Alonso, but also on details of the phone and text message traffic between McLaren’s suspended chief designer, Mike Coughlan, and the former Ferrari chief mechanic, Nigel Stepney, supplied to the FIA by the authorities in Italy.

Although the evidence does not include details of what was said in phone calls and texts, the FIA is thought to be able to demonstrate how the rate of calls and messages between Stepney and Coughlan allegedly matches e-mail traffic between Alonso and De La Rosa. The implication being that if the drivers needed a detail checked, they then referred the matter to Coughlan, who passed on queries to Stepney.

The scandal began in early July when Ferrari discovered by chance that Stepney had supplied Coughlan with a 780-page blueprint of Ferrari’s present race car and their research and track operations, an allegation Stepney denies. The information at the heart of the new evidence, however, predates the transfer of the dossier between Stepney and Coughlan in late April and is thought to centre on incidents in March.

It is understood that all 26 members of the WMSC received a copy of the new evidence last Friday, the same day that McLaren were given their own copy of the case against themselves. McLaren will face questioning from WMSC members at the hearing, where Ferrari will also be able to make their own submission before the Council considers its verdict and any sanction should McLaren be found guilty.

McLaren are expected to present a robust defence and will argue that the e-mail traffic was limited in scope and does not show that Ferrari information was used on their race cars. The view among sources close to the team is that the drivers have done nothing wrong and the case linking the e-mails with the phone calls between Coughlan and Stepney is tenuous.

As one source put it: “In terms of the drivers, they haven’t done anything wrong and certainly not done anything that would amount to a serious breach of the regulations.” He described the whole situation as a mess and said it would be very difficult for the FIA to prove its case. “I have no idea how they are going to demonstrate how McLaren used the information,” the source said.

Another element of McLaren’s defence is thought to be the proposition that if they are found guilty, then rival teams such as Renault should also be punished for reasons McLaren have not specified. McLaren’s lawyers have put this point to the FIA, but the organisation has made clear that it considers that irrelevant to its case against McLaren.

During the Italian Grand Prix at Monza last weekend, the FIA published a letter sent by its president, Max Mosley, to all three McLaren drivers requesting that they hand over information they may have had concerning the use of Ferrari information. The letter included the following: “I can confirm, given the importance of this issue, that any information you may make available in response to this letter will not result in any proceedings against you under the International Sporting Code or the Formula One regulations.”

This was taken, by some, to mean that both Hamilton and Alonso would not have championship points removed should McLaren be found to have cheated and the punishment would centre on constructors’ points and a fine. However, The Times understands that this is not the case and that the FIA regards the WMSC as having a free hand when it comes to deciding on any sanctions.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article2434587.ece

[javadog]

You can now read online the full text of the WMSC ruling. Here's one spot:

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=32766

Note that they did not disclose the full information that they had at their disposal.

If the rumours about Alonso black-mailing Ron Dennis are true (one wonders how he could be that stupid....) I don't see why Ron would keep him in the car the rest of the year. As for Pedro, I think he's probably out of a job.

This isn't over yet.

JR

[w21055]

Alonso is not done he can go to NASCAR. Nascar would be really cool with Vodafone, Elf, and ING as sponsors!

[stealthn]

The drivers (at least Alonso) knew so he should be stripped of points and banned. But, if Ferrari was "giving" the info away what's the harm?

-----

McLaren were stripped of their 2007 constructors' points and fined Ł49.2m after a hearing into "spygate".

The affair began in July when a 780-page dossier of Ferrari data was found at the home of now-suspended McLaren chief designer Mike Coughlan.

He received the data from Ferrari's ex-chief mechanic Nigel Stepney.

In a 16-page document, the FIA said emails showed that test driver Pedro de la Rosa and fellow-Spaniard Fernando Alonso had been aware of the Ferrari data.


All the information from Ferrari is very reliable

Pedro de la Rosa in an email to Fernando Alonso on 25 March

"The emails show unequivocally that both Mr Alonso and Mr de la Rosa received confidential Ferrari information via Mike Coughlan.

"Both drivers knew that this information was confidential Ferrari information and that both knew that the information was being received by Coughlan from Nigel Stepney," the report states.

In what is being viewed as the most damning section of the report, the FIA has published an email exchange between De la Rosa and Alonso.

"All the information from Ferrari is very reliable," De la Rosa wrote to Alonso on 25 March in an exchange about the Ferrari's weight distribution.

"It comes from Nigel Stepney, their former chief mechanic - I don't know what post he holds now.

"He's the same person who told us in Australia that Kimi (Raikkonen) was stopping in lap 18. He's very friendly with Mike Coughlan, our chief designer and he told him that."



The FIA also highlights evidence from Ferrari, originating from the Italian Police, and is the result of an official analysis of telephone, texts and email contacts between Coughlan and Stepney.

Between 21 March and 3 July, Coughlan received 23 calls from Stepney's mobile, with four made, while Coughlan received 124 texts from Stepney, and sent 66.

The FIA notes that contact increased during a test carried out by Ferrari in Malaysia at the end of March, and in the run-up to and during the Australian, Malaysian, Bahrain and Spanish Grands Prix.

The FIA states: "The new evidence regarding the number and timing of the contacts makes it far more likely that there was a systematic flow of Ferrari confidential information to Coughlan.

"This leads to the conclusion that the illicit communication of information was very likely not limited to the transmission of the Ferrari dossier discovered at Coughlan's home on 3 July 2007."

McLaren has refused to comment on the FIA's revelations, published on the eve of the Belgian Grand Prix in Spa.

[jyl]

That ruling (see link in quote) seems pretty damning against McLaren.

You've got McLaren Chief Designer Coughlan, lead driver Alonso, and test driver Del La Rosa intentionally and knowingly getting and using information from Ferrari Head Mechanic Stepney. A large amount of information, the >700 page dossier on Ferrari's car but also on-going information via phone calls and emails during the season, on Ferrari's technology and race strategy.

Don't see how F1 could do anything but punish McLaren severely. I think McLaren is lucky to get just exclusion from the Constructors Championship and a $100MM fine. They can still race for the Drivers Championship and the sponsors can use that in their marketing - you think most Mercedes owners even know the difference between the Constructors and Drivers titles?

I hope Hamilton was, in fact, not involved. I'm guessing he wasn't, since Alonso can hardly have trusted Hamilton enough to let him in on the secret.

Originally Posted by javadog

You can now read online the full text of the WMSC ruling. Here's one spot:

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=32766

Note that they did not disclose the full information that they had at their disposal.

If the rumours about Alonso black-mailing Ron Dennis are true (one wonders how he could be that stupid....) I don't see why Ron would keep him in the car the rest of the year. As for Pedro, I think he's probably out of a job.

This isn't over yet.

JR

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by jyl

I hope Hamilton was, in fact, not involved. I'm guessing he wasn't, since Alonso can hardly have trusted Hamilton enough to let him in on the secret.

Sure looks like Hamilton is now driver #1... by default.

Alonzo and de la Rosa can go drive Crashcar or be a Wal-Mart greeter but they sure are not going to be welcome in F1 after this.

[jyl]

Originally Posted by stealthn

if Ferrari was "giving" the info away what's the harm?

Amazing. I don't know where some people learn their so-called ethics.

I guess there's "no harm" if a US government officer "gives away" classified information to the Chinese or Russian intelligence services?

I guess there's "no harm" if a disgruntled employee at your company "gives away" confidential data to a competitor?

[Dottore]

Originally Posted by Joeaksa

Bombshell from SpeedTV this morning during the Spa practice session was that Ferdinando Alonzo's career is effectively over... Its been pretty much confirmed that Alonzo was trying to blackmail McLaren into making him the lead driver for good, and firing Hamilton effective immediately, replacing him after this race. If McLaren did not do this then he would turn over documents and emails to the FIA that would evidently harm McLaren. How he got these is a good question but most are saying that they were between Alonzo and Pedro de la Rosa, the McLaren test driver.

Joe:

This is the first I have heard of the blackmail allegations. Have you heard this reported elsewhere as well - or just on Speed TV?

[stealthn]

Originally Posted by jyl

Amazing. I don't know where some people learn their so-called ethics.

I guess there's "no harm" if a US government officer "gives away" classified information to the Chinese or Russian intelligence services?

I guess there's "no harm" if a disgruntled employee at your company "gives away" confidential data to a competitor?

If he did not work for Ferrari anymore and did not sign a non-disclosure agreement, too bad for them. If he did, then it's a crime.

A bunch of spoiled millionaires telling each other they use nitrogen (or whatever) in their tires is a little so they don't blister is a little different than endangering lives giving away military secrets, lighten up!

[Jims5543]

If you cannot see this for what it is, then your hatred for Ferrari has blinded you.

jyl - right on, while this is car racing and not government secrets it is a great comparison.


I for one am sad that this is unfolding, I would prefer to see the WC come right down to Brazil in a 3 or 4 way fight.

[450knotOffice]

Me too. I was really looking forward to a good race at Spa this weekend...now this. Afaiac, the season's ruined. There can be no good outcome to this for McLaren or Ferrari.

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by Dottore

Joe:

This is the first I have heard of the blackmail allegations. Have you heard this reported elsewhere as well - or just on Speed TV?

So far just on Speed but now it gets better!

Interesting that most if not all of the intel was NOT shared with Hamilton (Alonzo only) and Hamilton is still ahead on points! Egg all over the Spanish contingent's faces!

~~~~~~~~~

Not sure that this is illegal but sure is interesting!

~~~~~~~~~

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/formulaone/40241/

One of the key submissions to the World Motor Sport Council on Thursday came from Ferrari driver Kimi Raikkonen, we can reveal.

The Ferrari driver stated in writing that while he was at McLaren from 2002 until 2006 the team systematically listened to Ferrari’s radio transmissions, which are supposed to be scrambled.

This was put to Ron Dennis in Paris on Thursday, and reportedly a long silence followed before he came up with a reply.

Intriguingly, the Kimi evidence was not part of the report released by the FIA today, and thus has not reached the public domain until now.

Ironically in July Mika Salo revealed to a Finnish newspaper that when at Ferrari in 1999 he regularly received transcripts of Mika Hakkinen’s radio conversations.

Unfortunately for Salo he was driving a Ferrari at the Spa 24 Hours the week that story emerged. A “correction” was soon sent from Maranello explaining what the Finn had meant to say was that in those primitive days sometimes teams accidentally overheard the conversations of rivals…

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Key conclusions include the following:

• Coughlan had more information than previously appreciated and was receiving information in a systematic manner over a period of months;
• The information has been disseminated, at least to some degree (eg to de la Rosa and Alonso), within McLaren;
• The information being disseminated within the McLaren team included not only highly sensitive technical information but also secret information regarding Ferrari’s sporting strategy;
• De la Rosa, in the performance of his functions at McLaren, requested and received secret Ferrari information from a source which he knew to be illegitimate and expressly stated that his purpose was to test in the simulator;
• The secret information in question was shared with Alonso;
• There was a clear intention on the part of a number of McLaren personnel to use some of the Ferrari confidential information in its own testing. If this was not in fact carried into effect it was only because there were technical reasons not to do so;
• Coughlan’s role within McLaren (as now understood by the WMSC) put him in a position in which his knowledge of the secret Ferrari information would have influenced him in the performance of his duties.

McLaren argued that there was no evidence of Ferrari intellectual property featuring on its car. However the WMSC said that “neither the finding of a breach nor the imposition of a penalty require evidence of McLaren having directly incorporated Ferrari technology.”

[frogger]

Originally Posted by jyl

That ruling (see link in quote) seems pretty damning against McLaren.

You've got McLaren Chief Designer Coughlan, lead driver Alonso, and test driver Del La Rosa intentionally and knowingly getting and using information from Ferrari Head Mechanic Stepney. A large amount of information, the >700 page dossier on Ferrari's car but also on-going information via phone calls and emails during the season, on Ferrari's technology and race strategy.

Don't see how F1 could do anything but punish McLaren severely. I think McLaren is lucky to get just exclusion from the Constructors Championship and a $100MM fine. They can still race for the Drivers Championship and the sponsors can use that in their marketing - you think most Mercedes owners even know the difference between the Constructors and Drivers titles?

I hope Hamilton was, in fact, not involved. I'm guessing he wasn't, since Alonso can hardly have trusted Hamilton enough to let him in on the secret.

My current thoughts on all of this are that Alonso and De La Prosa should be sacked immediately, or right after this weekend's event. If any of the other McLaren employees were involved, they should go as well. McLaren should see if they have a legal remedy against Coughlan, Alonso, and De La Rosa. Hit them financially for their actions to undermine the team. These people are scum and do not belong in the sport.