Formula 1 nuttiness - Mclaren stripped of 2007 points

[450knotOffice]

Here's a link to the FIA's detailed statement. It is very long, but very interesting and includes some snippets of emails between the drivers and mechanics concerning Ferrari setup. I also find it interesting that Hamilton responded with no info for the FIA. My guess is he's lying and is simply playing the company line, which I suppose could be considered very loyal. However, the FIA made it very clear to the drivers that if it was found out later that they had withheld any info, the penalties would be huge. For his sake, I hope he really knew nothing about any of this, but I find that hard to believe.

http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_2728560,00.html

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by 450knotOffice

Here's a link to the FIA's detailed statement. It is very long, but very interesting and includes some snippets of emails between the drivers and mechanics concerning Ferrari setup. I also find it interesting that Hamilton responded with no info for the FIA. My guess is he's lying and is simply playing the company line, which I suppose could be considered very loyal. However, the FIA made it very clear to the drivers that if it was found out later that they had withheld any info, the penalties would be huge. For his sake, I hope he really knew nothing about any of this, but I find that hard to believe.

http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_2728560,00.html

What would sink Hamilton is if Alonzo or anyone else had copies of emails from/to him about this. This is sure to come out and if/when it does he has a problem.

That said, Alonzo and de la Rosa are already sunk, and they deserve it. Also, no one seems to mention that Ferarri has been as well monitoring McLaren's radio communications FOR YEARS now and no one has said a thing. If its legal for one team then its legal for all one would think.

Cannot wait for qualifing tomorrow to hear the discussion. It was really between two people,

[jyl]

Originally Posted by stealthn

If he did not work for Ferrari anymore and did not sign a non-disclosure agreement, too bad for them. If he did, then it's a crime.

A bunch of spoiled millionaires telling each other they use nitrogen (or whatever) in their tires is a little so they don't blister is a little different than endangering lives giving away military secrets, lighten up!

Anyone in that business signs non-disclosure agreements, that is certain.

But, regardless, the "it's not a crime" standard is just mis-guided.

By that standard, there's no problem with, and would be no penalty for, drugged-out Tour de France riders, steroid-pumped Russian gymnasts, home runs hit with illegal bats, pretty much any sort of cheating in sports at all. Because almost none of that is actually "criminal".

So you'd either have (1) unrestrained cheating, spying, drugging, etc in all sorts of sports, or (2) bringing every detail of sports under the heavy hand of the criminal justice system. Seems like a pretty bad idea.

[Aerkuld]

This puts an interesting light on the whole situation.
I can see that the person giving the information away is guilty and that anyone caught using that information to their advantage is also guilty. But it seems as though only a few people within the McLaren team knew the information and even then there is doubt as to whether or not it was used. From McLaren's perspective I would think they would be right to fire anyone found to have been cheating, including drivers, and probably should. The same with Ferrari, if they catch the guy giving out the information then get rid of him. That side of things is something the teams should deal with.
As for the punishment, if the team as a whole didn't have any knowledge of what was going on, and it does appear that the whole thing may have been kept from Hamilton, then why should the whole team be punished. Particularly if none of the technical information had been used to the teams advantage in the design of their car. If it was set-up information and pit stratergies then I can see how it could be used in qualifying to gain an advantage, but we are talking one driver for a couple of races, not the entire team for the whole season. It strikes me that the WMSC screwed up by offering the drivers immunity and are looking at ways to effect punishment without hurting the drivers when it appears to be the drivers (one in particular) that seem to have been in a position to benefit the most.

[Joeaksa]

Aer,

There are other things swirling around this. For the FIA and others to say that "if Ron Dennis leaves, then its all over" sure shows that this was done, or possibly done to get him to leave McLaren.

Agree totally with the rest of your post.

[javadog]

There are a few things to ponder, if you think about it a little while. Before the first hearing, you have to figure McLaren did quite a bit of digging to figure out exactly what transpired. To go into a WMSC hearing unprepared isn't likely, given the stakes. McLaren gave their case, said it was limited to one guy. and got off lightly.

Now, at hearing number 2, more information comes out that indicates what McLaren told the FIA in hearing 1 was essentially a load of crap. There's no way you'll convince me, or the FIA, that at least some of this wasn't known to McLaren at the time of hearing number 1. All we know now is what they have found since the first hearing. Given the difficulty of digging up all of the relevant information, or finding anything that passed between two or more individuals in a simple unrecorded conversation, I'd wager there's a lot more that will never come to light. Convincing me that a control freak like Ron had no knowledge of any of this will likely never happen.

Also, if Alonso had real time information about Ferrari race strategy and setup data, you'll never convince me nobody else on his crew knew about it. Alonso would want any advantage he could get, particularly given Hamilton's performances this year, and no race strategy decisions are left to the drivers alone.

Like I said, this is far from over.

JR

[Jims5543]

VERY far from over, and without Alonso cooperating and now e-mails with his name on them showing up I would not be surprised to see him have action taken against him.

Its one thing to watch video or take pictures of others cars. I even heard of teams, Ferrari and MClaren taking pictures of each others cockpits. I also know all the teams listen in on each other, nothing new there, Ferrari isn't the only one doing that. Its a whole new game when you are working with a mole and getting team secrets.

This is all nuts and it sucks, its ruining what was otherwise a very exciting season and I for one never liked Alonso and like him a whole lot less now.

[Eric Coffey]

Originally Posted by 450knotOffice

...I also find it interesting that Hamilton responded with no info for the FIA. My guess is he's lying and is simply playing the company line, which I suppose could be considered very loyal.

Well if the chain of info went from Coughlan directly to Alonso's & his crew, you can bet that Hamilton was indeed left out of the loop. FA would probably share that info with other teems before giving Hamilton any form of help. Obviously at some point Hamilton caught on or was informed, but I have a feeling he will come out of this squeeky clean.

[ErVikingo]

I think that Alonso is safe (he had immunity)....

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by ErVikingo

I think that Alonso is safe (he had immunity)....

Not safe from Ron Dennis nor the British press.

Both of them will be after Alonzo and de la Rosa's hide, in small pieces slowly ripped from their body...

[MFAFF]

Originally Posted by Eric Coffey

Well if the chain of info went from Coughlan directly to Alonso's & his crew, you can bet that Hamilton was indeed left out of the loop. FA would probably share that info with other teems before giving Hamilton any form of help. Obviously at some point Hamilton caught on or was informed, but I have a feeling he will come out of this squeeky clean.

Aside from the fact that Hamilton used Alonso's set up for the first few races this year... opting to go his own way in Hungary...and Turkey and returning to Alonso's set up in Italy you are right.

Also setting aside the fact that a now key Ferrari employee left Ferrari in 2004 to work for McClaren and then returned to Ferrari in 2006; having spent two full seasons on the race team as a technical director....leaving 'unexpectedly' at the season's end, but in time to regain his job at Ferrari...certainly legal and accepted spying.

Interesting to see the seedy under belly of the 'sport' being dragged kicking into the light.

[Joeaksa]

Well kids, if anyone needs anymore proof that this is a witch-hunt against Ron Dennis and McLaren, here it is...

Guess its ok for Renault to take data from McLaren but if McLaren does it from anyone else its illegal....

~~~~~~~~~~~~

F1: Briatore Vague on Renault Use of McLaren Data

Written by: Adam Cooper, RACER Magazine Spa-Francorchamps, Belgium – 9/14/2007

Briatore: His turn in the spotlight? (LAT photo) MORE PHOTOS

The matter first came to light at McLaren when the team did a thorough review of its IT systems in an attempt to see whether any information relating to Ferrari and Nigel Stepney had been passed around.

During that search it was discovered that a team member who had subsequently moved to Renault had downloaded information. It’s believed that he took three CDs of data with him to Renault.

On becoming aware via a source that McLaren was already conducting an investigation into the matter, Briatore personally approached Ron Dennis at Monza and volunteered that Renault had indeed obtained some McLaren information.

We understand that the initial “shopping list” of information he offered did not entirely match up with that already compiled by McLaren as being copied. Subsequently Renault has added further items to its original list.

Questioned on the subject at the FIA press conference on Friday, Briatore said, “I think McLaren was judged by the World Council, and there was enough evidence to find McLaren guilty – it’s as simple as that. I don’t want, at this moment [to talk] about Renault because, first, we are not being investigated, second we give all our evidence to McLaren and to Mr. Mosley and to the Federation.”

The matter is now being discussed by lawyers representing to the two teams. Curiously thus far there has been no indication from the FIA that it will pursue a case against Renault.

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/formulaone/40260/

[Porsche-O-Phile]

This is just the kind of controversy it needs to make it interesting though. Maybe it'll start appealing to more people because of this - odd irony, really.

[scottmandue]

Originally Posted by 450knotOffice

Here's a link to the FIA's detailed statement. It is very long, but very interesting and includes some snippets of emails between the drivers and mechanics concerning Ferrari setup. I also find it interesting that Hamilton responded with no info for the FIA. My guess is he's lying and is simply playing the company line, which I suppose could be considered very loyal. However, the FIA made it very clear to the drivers that if it was found out later that they had withheld any info, the penalties would be huge. For his sake, I hope he really knew nothing about any of this, but I find that hard to believe.

http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_2728560,00.html

Very interesting link, everyone should check it out... gets good around 3.3

[scottmandue]

Originally Posted by MFAFF

Aside from the fact that Hamilton used Alonso's set up for the first few races this year... opting to go his own way in Hungary...and Turkey and returning to Alonso's set up in Italy you are right.

The guys on SpeedTV said Alonso was "allowed to withhold his setup"

Did Hamiton go his own way or was Alonso holding out?

[javadog]

Originally Posted by scottmandue

The guys on SpeedTV said Alonso was "allowed to withhold his setup"

Did Hamiton go his own way or was Alonso holding out?

Apparently, Alonso got permission to quit sharing his data with Hamilton, forcing Hamilton to set up his own car.

JR

[Lothar]

According to Steve Matchett, the teams have the setup info for both cars on their network. He believes that the "not sharing setup info" was just lip-service to appease Alonso.

So what of the notion that Alonso tried to Blackmail the team to drop Hamilton for the remainder of the season in return for not revealing the emails and cell phone calls to the WMSC? I'm having a hard time believing that to be true unless Ron Dennis does not want to take any action against Alonso until they decide about an appeal of Thursday's ruling.

In the absence of any other consideration, and assuming that the blackmail allegation is true, there is no way that I would allow Alonso in my race car. Has anyone heard any confirmation of this allegation?

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by Lothar

In the absence of any other consideration, and assuming that the blackmail allegation is true, there is no way that I would allow Alonso in my race car. Has anyone heard any confirmation of this allegation?

I watched the coverage today to see if it was mentioned and not at all. My guess is that the Speed lawyers said that if its not been confirmed that you cannot talk about it at all, otherwise we get sued.

If its true, it will come out, just like the Ferarri intercepting the radio transmissions of everyone else 5-6 years ago. Someone will slip and say something then it will all open up. Other option is that McLaren gets rid of Alonzo at years end because like you I cannot see Ron Dennis putting up with this crap from anyone, at any cost.

[MFAFF]

McClaren use a base common set up for the cars..and permit each driver to fine tune their own preferences.

In the first races Alonso's fine tuning was used on both cars, as LH prefered to let the more experienced FA find the 'best point' for the car.

After his remarkable series of results he 'felt' competent to do his own fine tuning..with a resultant dip in performance.

This showed just how much Alonso was 'giving' to LH....as a result its clear that Fa is the one getting the most out of the car and so the 'more valuable' driver.

Clearly this is not going to change much during the season, FA's only option was to not share his data or at least not all of it and force LH to do his own....which in view of his 'issues' with the team he has reason to believe are inferior to his....

My guess is that RD knows too well that if FA is released he will not get LH or Fa to win the Driver's Championship so will go out of 2007 empty handed, not acceptable...

SO he keeps FA until the end of the season and depending on how good LH is at developing the car (ie getting close to FA's times) he keeps FA....(or LH).

RD's only concern is McClaren winning, drivers are 'disposable', if they do not do the job they can go...he let Prost go and Senna...both a bit above the current crop...

[sammyg2]

I had to leave and go to work with 5 laps left so I didn't see the very end. But...... I opened up F1.com and saw a picture of Kimi, Massa, and alonso on the podium. What gives? the FIA said that Alonso and Hamilton will not be eligible to participate in podium award ceremonies for the remainder of the 2007 season. Did they change their minds?