Poverty: What's Your Solution

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts

Here's the truth: Illegal immigration is perhaps the number one reason why more people are below the poverty level than should be. All of these illegal workers who wish to work for $5 or $10 an hour off the books are depressing wages for the rest of the legitimate American workforce. This is not theory, it's fact. Those who play by the rules and hire only legal workers (like Pelican does) are penalized with worker's comp, unemployment, social security wages, while those who hire illegals (say, my competitors) get workers at significantly lower wages. I'm not against immigration, but if we're going to import workers from South America, then we need to do it legally, and have all players play by the rules. This game of "wink wink", use this SSN and we'll look the other way is complete garbage.

If you want to raise the poverty level, then you need to stop eroding the salary structure of the bottom rung of workers.

-Wayne

In the short term, yes, in the long term, no. As the cost of production and manufacture rise due to increased labor cost, the increase will be passed on to consumers...those same consumers with increased wages. "Real" buying power is not a static measure.

[911Rob]

Capitalism!
The only thing that works, and the only thing that ever will.
Compassionate Capitalism!!!

Funny thing; the harder I work the luckier I get.

Now; who wants to work? That's the key here boys and girls; work!

Unemployment, employment, etc.; who gives a rats butt. How about having your own business and creating employment? We need more business minded people in our Countries; period. The rest of the Country lives off the business person.

Pick up a book and read all about it; the success principals are there for the taking! (or write a book, even better!)

Compassionate Capitalism; that's my answer.
If you can work, then go to work; no handouts, welfare, freebies or such. If you can't work; well enough, we're sorry about that and we'll all chip in to help, that's for sure! But the lazy takers need a kick in the butt!

100 years ago there were less than 5% of the population that enjoyed a pay cheque from the good 'ol Government. Today the figure is almost completely reversed; and definately less than 5% of the population own their own business!

[berettafan]

Originally Posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts

All of these illegal workers who wish to work for $5 or $10 an hour off the books are depressing wages for the rest of the legitimate American workforce.

.............

If you want to raise the poverty level, then you need to stop eroding the salary structure of the bottom rung of workers.

-Wayne

Holy *****! And from a Ca. bsns owner too!!!

Farkin A Wayne!!!!!!!!!

[GDSOB]

The illegals also affect our ability to create good paying skilled or semi-skilled positions. I have a friend who owns a food automation company who's seen business drop off due to cheap illegal workers. Who wants to buy a million dollar automated production line, when you have cheap manual labor available?

[DanL911sc]

Hmm, which is better, higher unemployment or illegal immigration? Seems like a bit of a trade off.

[bt1211]

unfettered abortions,



written with a little tongue in cheek

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. If you flood the market with abundant cheap labor, the labor costs will never rise. As it is right now, illegals that are here right now are seeing their relatively high-paying jobs be undercut by more illegals arriving everyday. There's no chance for salary increases when there's more and more people coming here willing to work for less.

-Wayne

I meant the reverse. If you eliminate cheap labor and replace them with higher wage laborers, then the cost of service/production rises. This cost is always passed on to the consumer. So, the lowest rung on the ladder is always in a tail chase.

We all consume, just at different rates according to our real wage.

[Tobra]

Originally Posted by 911Rob

Funny thing; the harder I work the luckier I get.

Reminds me of a story. Sitting in doctor's lounge at hospital, few years into practice. Was talking to a friend, saying how fortunate I felt to have been accepted into the community, done well wtih growing list of clientele. This older doc, who I sort of knew vaguely spoke up from the next table.

"Have you ever noticed how people who work hard and treat people well always seem to get lucky?"

it is not a coincidence

[berettafan]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

This cost is always passed on to the consumer.

but the discount for using illegal labor is not passed on to the consumer. bsns owners utilizing illegal labor are putting more money into their own pockets and not discounting prices.

i am convinced that this is not a question of booting the illegals and paying higher prices for everything but rather booting illegals and seeing bsns owners have a few less bucks in their pockets (ie going back to what profit margins used to be).

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by berettafan

but the discount for using illegal labor is not passed on to the consumer. bsns owners utilizing illegal labor are putting more money into their own pockets and not discounting prices.

i am convinced that this is not a question of booting the illegals and paying higher prices for everything but rather booting illegals and seeing bsns owners have a few less bucks in their pockets (ie going back to what profit margins used to be).

If prices will increase if/when illegals are booted and wages are hiked, then the savings IS already being passed back to the consumer. You never really miss it until it's gone. Companies don't cut their profit margins just because consumers think they make too much money. IF their costs increase, they will pass them along to the consumer unless there is just so much competition that they can't get away with it. Your personal outrage at their profits plays no role in the whole game.

[berettafan]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

If prices will increase if/when illegals are booted and wages are hiked, then the savings IS already being passed back to the consumer.

That is terribly faulty logic.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by berettafan

That is terribly faulty logic.

How? Because you want to believe you're being gouged?

[MRM]

Originally Posted by idontknow

Oh they already have.

Edit: Lest we forget the private & religous sectors. Salvation army and Commissary will gladly help the needy with free food. Salvation army can pay her electric bill once every 3 months, she can apply for free telephone connection, Goodwill for free clothing and food, Faith Farm for free furniture, clothing, and food. Local churches would help with water bills, food, clothing and you can scam the congregation for more free furniture. The list can go on and on.

I'm a proud conservative and can report that about the only Democratic vote I ever cast was for Jesse Jackson in the 1988 Wisconsin presidential primary to try to spoil the Democratic field. I used to prosecute and found most of my clientel was supported by the Salvation Army.

But as I get older I care less and less that some people are getting something for nothing while I prosper by the fruits of my labor. I give money to people on the street, have always contributed to the Salvation Army, and contribute to Good Will, in addition to my church. You know why?

Because three thoughts keep popping into my mind. The foundation for onservative thought starts with the proposition that all men are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights. And that leads conservatives like me to believe in a Creator, which thus suggests an afterlife, and leads to the following beliefs: 1) That all humans will be judged in the next life for what they do here. So if the poor are stealing, they'll be dealt with by a higher power. I don't need to get my undies in a bunch about it. God will even the score in the end without my assistance. 2) I keep hearing a phrase someone said a long time ago that someone wrote down. It says something about giving food and clothing to the least among us is giving it to God. If I am right about belief number 1, above, I want to be judges as someon who gave freely and generously to God on earth. I certainly don't want to have to explain why I didn't think He was valuable enough of a member of society to merit my assistance 3) And finally, I have this whimsical thing about angels. Supposedly men have comforted angels unaware. Can you tell the difference between an angel and a homeless bum if he doesn't reveal himself? I don't think I can. It gives me pleasure to give homeless people a buck here andthere, wondering if I just assisted an angel. And if I just gave it to some old wino who's going to blow the money on drugs and loose women, that will be sorted out in the end too.

[TerryBPP]

I'll be the extremist.

Put birth control in the municipal water supply and only give the antidote to family making above a designated household income.

Sounds harsh but by definition the more kids you have when you are on welfare the more money you rake in every month. Therefore there is a reason for the poor to out breed the wealthy.

Wow, I feel like Hitler making that statement. Sad but true.

[Moneyguy1]

Rick: In reality, any company will charge any price they feel the buying public will pony up. If the product is in short supply, the price will be very high. If the product is protected by patent (think medications) the price to the public (markup) will be astronomical. A friend of mine in the medical field showed me something a while back. The same medicine given out by a veterenarian was less than a dollar for two pills. At the drug store, the price is just under $9 for one dose. Go figure. Therefore, I am not a firm believer in the theory that kicking out illegals will automatically increase costs to producers. Making handouts to citizens more difficult, tying them to work being done (for example, if a person is only capable of a menial job, pay this person a menial salary with a relatively small stipend from the government to bring this individual up to a sustinance level rather than a 100% government maintenance). Using non-violent prisoners for some jobs seems to work well in some areas, in jobs ranging from furniture making to highway cleanup.

Then again, what do I know?