Poverty: What's Your Solution

[GDSOB]

Originally Posted by idontknow

Oh they already have. It's called disability. Grandma only had to work long enough to get the needed credits. Once she's denied twice for disability, you pick your "free" lawyer out of the phone book and get it the third time. Then it's off to get your retroactive SSI to pay off the lawyer. Disability is nothing, SSI is the key to living lazy. The daughter stays in school failing all the way till she's 26 to maximize her SSI income.

Now what grandma did was teach her daughter how to use the system so she can be lazy as well.

Edit: Lest we forget the private & religous sectors. Salvation army and Commissary will gladly help the needy with free food. Salvation army can pay her electric bill once every 3 months, she can apply for free telephone connection, Goodwill for free clothing and food, Faith Farm for free furniture, clothing, and food. Local churches would help with water bills, food, clothing and you can scam the congregation for more free furniture. The list can go on and on.

I agree with all of above and have seen it first hand. I've probably had over 100 subsidized tenants (sec 8, & other gov't & private subsidies) Maybe 10% really needed assistance as they were too old, mentally ill, or mentally or physically disabled to work. The rest were playing the system. And doing well at it.

They typical play is this: Momma and babies in a section 8 rental, getting SSI, foodstamps and other freebies to pay the way- the more kids, the better. Many times I've seen the baby daddy living at the house, unemployed, or dealing drugs. They can't be married otherwise the freebies go away.

There's really a sense of entitlement. I inherited one tenant- a Rastafarian lady who had 7 kid. The laziest person I've ever seen. The kids never went to school or had shoes. I asked her why her kids weren't in school and she replied "no one is PAYING me to send them to school". Uh yeah, so the sec 8, and the other checks you receive every month ain't payin' is it?

These kids are being taught to work the system and very few are getting out of it. Just hope they are too lazy to vote or we'll be in big trouble.

[Moses]

Great story. Truly inspirational. I notice that the government is picking up the tab for your education. This is EXACTLY how I like to see our tax dollars spent. The state of Wisconsin is helping someone who is making positive choices with his life. In return, Speedy will ultimately have a better job and pay more taxes that he ever would with a lower paying job.

Originally Posted by speedracing944

A positive I have going for me is the State of Wisconsin is picking up the tab on tuition and books as well as extending my unemployment check until I am done with school.
Speedy

[GDSOB]

Originally Posted by gmeteer

A local family court judge was addressing our Rotary Club a few years ago, and he made one of those statements that really put it all together for me: "If a certain 50 families in this county, with all its members could somehow leave here for other parts, well, you could do away with my job. You flat out wouldn't need my services and I would gladly return to my practice." He went on to say that he feels these nuclear relationships in large part determine the success or failure of individuals, hanging around with losers will surely make you one too! And of course, these families are at the very bottom of the social scale, living in poverty.
I guess my answer on solving poverty would include somehow reaching these families and thereby work on breaking the cycle of poverty, as it is a cycle and seems to involve the same families over and over. This is the hard core of poverty in the US, not a guy that has lost his job and is looking for another. These folks only work when they have to.

My wife is from a rural Appalachian Ohio county with 16% unemployment. It's like crabs in a bucket trying to keep each other down there.

[tc-sacto]

Originally Posted by Superman

I agree completely. I've been in courtrooms, and I know this is largely true. I'd guess we've got one of those situations where 80% of people are taking care of themselves and their families and paying the cost of the other 20%, who are committing 80% of the crimes and costing us all in court, tax and insurance payments. Resolve that, and you're most of the way to the finish line.

But the cost of resolving that is high. Not higher than we are paying in terms of court, and tax and insurance and police and other costs, but high compared to TAX costs only. In other words, we'd need to take the money we're already spending in hidden costs, and focus that money on resolving the problem.

I'm not that different from you. I don't support this crap. But you call me a "liberal" because I think we're not going to solve the problem by ignoring it. Or by withdrawing welfare (which is probably impossible and even if we could do it, you would NOT like the result). If we want to solve the problem, then we need to solve the problem. And it will cost money.

I would agree with you. However, I do not think it should cost any EXTRA than what we currently pay. I see NO reason anyone in America should have to pay more than 20% of their income to the government for these services.

If the current government would re-allocate the current wasted dollars, we would be able to fund all kinds of wonderful programs.

My main grip is the politicians continue to feather their own nest and raise taxes further to pay for these programs. Then taxes are raised and the money NEVER see its way to these programs. The taxes will again be mis-appropriated.

Therefore I can never, in good conscience, vote to raise taxes.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Someone sent me what I think could be a good idea. Depending on how far these ideas go and then coalesce into something meaningful, they suggested it be sent to all the candidates as well as media. Almost certainly it will be thrown in the cylindrical filing cabinet, but worth the effort. not much to lose. Pelican, of course, won't be referenced.

[kstar]

The answer:




Best,

Kurt

[legion]

I've been out-of-town a few days, but I think it's time to respond.

I think poverty will always be with us. Having opportunities that are better than poverty are the best bet for keeping it at a minimum. (Like employment putting you in a better state than not working.) As it is a problem that can only be minimized, not eliminated, I look towards solutions that end up costing me, personally the least. I think that more/bigger/expanded programs are a waste of money, because once you are at the minimum (which I believe we are close to), nothing can make a difference. If anything, to get to the minimum, we need to make poverty a less attractive state to be in--I've never met someone who is below the poverty level who didn't own a car, have a roof over their head, and have cable television.

[tc-sacto]

Originally Posted by legion

I've been out-of-town a few days, but I think it's time to respond.

I think poverty will always be with us. Having opportunities that are better than poverty are the best bet for keeping it at a minimum. (Like employment putting you in a better state than not working.) As it is a problem that can only be minimized, not eliminated, I look towards solutions that end up costing me, personally the least. I think that more/bigger/expanded programs are a waste of money, because once you are at the minimum (which I believe we are close to), nothing can make a difference. If anything, to get to the minimum, we need to make poverty a less attractive state to be in--I've never met someone who is below the poverty level who didn't own a car, have a roof over their head, and have cable television.

As Will Rogers said, " We'll hold the distinction of being the only Nation in the history of the world that ever went to the poor house in an automobile."

[Lothar]

Do you mean poverty as in:

Only one car
No HDTV
a free cell phone, instead of a SmartPhone

Our definition of poverty is a joke.

That said, here's my plan:

Repeal the 16th and 17th amendments.

Repeal the Federal Reserve Act of 1913

Abolish the Federal Income Tax

Dismantle 90% of the Federal Government: Depts of Energy, Education, Commerce, EPA, and many, many more.

Permit the federal government only those powers explicitly granted in the Constitution.


Now good luck finding any Democrats or Republicans who will do any that! Both parties are the problem and not the solution.

What does all that have to do with poverty, you ask? Get the government off the backs of workers and entrepreneurs alike and permit people to enjoy the fruits of their labor without government thieves shaking us down every year.

On-ramp suggested banning credit cards. While the credit card itself does not make people poor, it is the devaluation of our money supply by the Federal Reserve that forces people to use credit to maintain their standard of living. Meanwhile, the banks tell everyone that it's good to use and maintain one's credit rating so you can get more and more and more....

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by Lothar

On-ramp suggested banning credit cards. While the credit card itself does not make people poor, it is the devaluation of our money supply by the Federal Reserve that forces people to use credit to maintain their standard of living. Meanwhile, the banks tell everyone that it's good to use and maintain one's credit rating so you can get more and more and more....

People rarely use credit to "maintain" their standard of living. By nature, credit cards allow people to buy things that they do not have the money to buy. In essence, credit cards allow people to live beyond their means.

Credit card use is a personal responsibility matter. When they are paid off monthly, credit cards are not harmful. If you carry a balance, you're asking for trouble. The average American has a negative net worth, but it's greed and lack of saving to blame. Credit card abuse is just a symptom.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by Lothar

That said, here's my plan:

Repeal the 16th and 17th amendments.

Repeal the Federal Reserve Act of 1913

Abolish the Federal Income Tax

Dismantle 90% of the Federal Government: Depts of Energy, Education, Commerce, EPA, and many, many more.

Permit the federal government only those powers explicitly granted in the Constitution.

You forgot to mention term limits, which is the only way the debacle gets fixed. The FFs didn't envision professional pols.

Other than that, very solid

Come the the Dragon this November and I'll buy you a drink.

[72doug2,2S]

The world is imperfect. We will always have a responsibility to help those with less, but keeping the saftey net doesn't require government waste. The religious sector can do much of the work, but mental illness is perhaps best handled with my tax dollars with primary education a close second.

Cycles of poverty were created by our entitlements. Who knows what our true poverty rates are when the poverty cycles are broken.

In America, you might say, "Land of the rich- let's do away with the bell curve," but we do have some poverty.

Do the politics of poverty try to convince us that many sustaining a certain standard of life are actually in need of assistance? If so, is this because too great a contrast exists (subjective) to their betters, or is there an inability to relate to real Americans? A purely subjective "poor" class is not going to fly with the people. So, are the poor swept in with the faux poor?

[Tobra]

Originally Posted by Rearden

How do you propose taxpayer dollars be spent to keep families together?

And what about the families that should not be together in the first place.

Problem we have, and I have said it many times, is the wrong people are breeding like rabbits. Your bright college educated types have one or none, and the ignorant trailer park bunny is popping out a half dozen.

To really eliminate poverty, you would have to make this a place that would not resemble America much, and I would not like that.

And to put it in perspective: While we bat this about, Markus is juggling a few sub 1 kilogram babies who decided to come out for a look early because 7 months was as long as two were staying in there. You ever see a premie that small? Their little fingernails are perfect, but the fingers they are on are so small they make your pinkie look the same diameter as one of those big cans of Foster's beer when they are wrapped around it.

[frogger]

+1

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts

Here's the truth: Illegal immigration is perhaps the number one reason why more people are below the poverty level than should be. All of these illegal workers who wish to work for $5 or $10 an hour off the books are depressing wages for the rest of the legitimate American workforce. This is not theory, it's fact. Those who play by the rules and hire only legal workers (like Pelican does) are penalized with worker's comp, unemployment, social security wages, while those who hire illegals (say, my competitors) get workers at significantly lower wages. I'm not against immigration, but if we're going to import workers from South America, then we need to do it legally, and have all players play by the rules. This game of "wink wink", use this SSN and we'll look the other way is complete garbage.

If you want to raise the poverty level, then you need to stop eroding the salary structure of the bottom rung of workers.

-Wayne

don't forget to add Free Trade into the mix. "That thing got a hemi?" Sure does, Made in Mexico. I'd like to see a big metal "Made in Mexico" tag on every motor gleaming proudly when you open the hood.

[Tobra]

That is Hecho en Mexico.

Wayne is right, the illegal situation depresses the wages, and raises costs in other areas. Greater demand for schools(illegals having lots of kids that are American citizens, when they leave they can take them with them) and filling up the ER's, more cars on the roads. You and I pay for it, and consequently get less for each tax dollar we give up.

[KFC911]

Originally Posted by Tobra

Wayne is right, the illegal situation depresses the wages, and raises costs in other areas....

IMO, the same applies to "outsourcing to India" in the IT field. I guess I'm also doing a job that "American's just won't do" according to GWB ! And no, the quality is simply NOT there...much like crap made in China, but YMMV.

[DanL911sc]

Originally Posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts

Here's the truth: Illegal immigration is perhaps the number one reason why more people are below the poverty level than should be. All of these illegal workers who wish to work for $5 or $10 an hour off the books are depressing wages for the rest of the legitimate American workforce. This is not theory, it's fact. Those who play by the rules and hire only legal workers (like Pelican does) are penalized with worker's comp, unemployment, social security wages, while those who hire illegals (say, my competitors) get workers at significantly lower wages. I'm not against immigration, but if we're going to import workers from South America, then we need to do it legally, and have all players play by the rules. This game of "wink wink", use this SSN and we'll look the other way is complete garbage.

If you want to raise the poverty level, then you need to stop eroding the salary structure of the bottom rung of workers.

-Wayne

I agree. I propose we drastically increasing the (legal) immigration quota for those coming from Mexico and central America -- enough that illegal immigration slows to a crawl. Provide seasonal and permanent work visas to match the jobs out there. Now all those immigrants are documented and part of the system (minimum wage, taxes, etc..). Demand for both under the table illegal immigrants and the jobs they take will drop dramatically. Tax income and wages will recover, the economy will benefit.

Any takers?

[cstreit]

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

Why are people poor? What are some of the root causes?

First, we will ALWAYS have poverty. Even in a world of billionaires, the guy with $1,000,000 is the poor one. It's just the bell curve. So start by looking at the relative level of poverty in the part of the world you can affect. I had an Ethiopian cab driver tell me once that he came to the US because he "wanted to come to a country where even the poor people could be overweight."

Trying to identify a cause with the intent to eliminate or improve it to get to a solution is impossible, there are just too many. Random chance, some people are lazy, others not bright enough, too many hurdles in the way of their life (education, opportunity, etc..) so there is no real fix that could impact a large portion of the population.

[frogger]

Wayne, are most of these jobs the same quality (pay/benefits) as those that were lost overseas due to Free (wink) Trade?