CCW holders, when would you intervene?

[FOG]

Rick,

They are. Colts with Bar Sto barrels in the 5” persuasion with small carry comps. Essentially shooting .451 Detonics (185 gr Sierra match at 1450 fps.) that shoots flatter than .22 lr. at 100 yds. 200 gr. LSWC at 900 fps or so is a good training round (much easier on the wallet).

I have come to terms that using a firearm in a non-official capacity I will loose it at least temporarily. I have also come to terms that the percentage dollar cost is small compared to the probable legal cost of even the most justified shooting. I have decided that the life of my loved ones should not be decided over a delta of a grand or two. I will spend the money.

I know quite a few folks who can engage at 100 yards, though a handgun is definitely not the preferred weapon. Usual choices are 1911s, Sigs, a couple of Glocks, and one Bren Ten.

As for the house it starts with a handgun on the nightstand but I will grab a FAL carbine.

John,

There are some full sized aluminum frame 1911s out there. Check out the delta in height and length between even a government and your 2”. I find 2” snubs very hard to shoot decently.

S/F, FOG

[alf]

Fog, you sure it is 100 yards and not 100 ft? I think the Marine Qualification only goes up to 25 yards and neither the target nor the shooter is moving.

[stealthn]

After just reading about this story and seeing this thread, I think there is a LOT of BS testosterone being thrown around here.

The answer is you will NEVER know until it happens to you; the flight or fight instinct will decide what you do, along with all the other factors, where you are, who you are with (if anyone), etc.

It's a very sad case, and my prayers are with the families of victims

[FOG]

Alf,

Quite sure. The official ranges for annual pistol qual are 7, 15 and 25 yards using 25 yard standard American target pasted onto torso silhouettes. The targets turn as their only movement if the range allows it.

I am quite sure that the target was at 100 surveyed yards. I have one of them in my office as we speak, it a low expert but expert non the less.

S/F, FOG

[nostatic]

Originally Posted by the

Oh, I'd take him out all right.

But even if I had a gun, I'd keep it in my pocket and take him out by ka-rah-tay. Probably a roundhouse.

Because that's how I roll. Old skool.

you go, Chuck!

[Jeff Higgins]

Right on, Bob. That's what I was trying to get at. We all think we would rush in to save the day, but I'm sure the reality is quite different. A man armed with a rifle is a pretty formidable foe, assuming he can use it. Engaging him with a typical concealed carry sidearm would be quite a feat. The only thing you would have going for you is the element of surprise. Better make that first on count; after that he has a huge advantage.

It seems some of you are more than a little underwhelmed with the potential effectiveness of a sidearm. I hunt with one regularly; usually a 4 5/8" Blackhawk in .45 Colt. Sometimes a fixed-sight 4 1/2" Peacemaker in the same caliber, sometimes a 6" Virginian Dragoon in .44 mag. I have taken deer-sized game with all of them. I took a pretty darn nice pronghorn at just about 120 yards one day, with the Peacemaker, shooting black powder loads. These things can be way more effective at "long" (for a handgun) range than many of you might guess. My 2 1/2" Charter Bulldog in .44 Special will stay on a gallon milk jug all day long at 100 yards, as will my mil-spec Springfield 1911. All it takes is practice (and a lot of it). I would hope anyone with a CCW would endeavor to become proficient and comfortable with their carry gun. Almost staying on a man-size silhouette at 10 feet ain't "proficienct", kids. I see too many at the local indoor range that seem to think that's pretty good.

[dhoward]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

Sorry, but the percentage of even seasoned shooters who can expertly place a 1911 round at 100 yrds. is extremely small. Such a 1911 would be a pretty fancy gun too and I don't like to carry anything that I can't easily afford to replace, since you will lose it if you ever have to use it. I love my 1911's and maybe they're great as house guns. But I wouldn't expect to use one for distance shooting in a defensive situation. Besides, anything that's 100 yds. from you is not a threat that you can do anything about.

+1
IME,
High-reliability in a 1911 and 100 yard accuracy are mutually exclusive, short of full race guns.

[FOG]

Dhoward,

I gotta disagree. I have no full race guns unless you want to call my CCW handguns full race (maybe 25 years ago). They are reliable enough that I would trust them to go to war with. Brush up on practice and from a rest (sitting or prone) I can hit torso silhouettes at 200 yards, though that would be tactical either desperation or to distract only to engage at that range.

S/F, FOG

[dhoward]

Sure, given enough time and a rest, I could lob one out 200yds too. (And I DO mean lob).
My point was, it's a pretty tight lockup to produce that sort of consistant accuracy. Without more work, it's hard to keep fed and cleared reliably.
Standard-issue handguns aren't accurized for a reason.
Well, several really.
JMO

[FOG]

Dhoward,

Out at 200 yards for most semi-auto round it is lob, never said it isn’t.

Are we talking standard issue handguns to what range. Most M9s and Sigs will reliable hit targets at 100 yards, I’ll bet the same of H&Ks + Glocks (though not a lot of money on Glocks), the issue 1911s in the military will do so.

S/F, FOG

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by FOG

As for the house it starts with a handgun on the nightstand but I will grab a FAL carbine.

Geeze, you must have no neighbors for miles, walls of .5" steel and no kids in the house. Rifles don't belong in the house for home defense unless it's for perimeter or outdoor stuff. I was shooting an M4 a few weeks ago at steel fenceposts, probably at about 75 yds. I was cutting through them like a hot knife through soft butter. If a .223 does that, I can't imagine what the adult calibers can do.

Anyway, I like high quality sidearms and feel a moral obligation to be as proficient as possible with whatever I carry. And that's partly why my 1911's stay home. I can shoot all my SIG's far better than I can my 1911's. As tricked out as some of my SIG's are, they are all easily replaceable too.

[the]

Don't be such a puzzy. Gotta defend the casa. Neighbors are just collateral damage.

[dhoward]

Originally Posted by FOG

Dhoward,

Out at 200 yards for most semi-auto round it is lob, never said it isn’t.

Are we talking standard issue handguns to what range. Most M9s and Sigs will reliable hit targets at 100 yards, I’ll bet the same of H&Ks + Glocks (though not a lot of money on Glocks), the issue 1911s in the military will do so.

S/F, FOG

K.
Semantics.
Targets
Anything is capable of hitting something @100yds.
You win.

[daepp]

Mall was a "Gun Free Zone" even though Nebraska is a very CCW state. There were signs outside the mall indicating no guns. How's that for an invitation to a deranged shooter/murderer???

[the]

Invitation? The sign said NO guns! That guy totally disregarded the signs, unbelievable!

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by the

Invitation? The sign said NO guns! That guy totally disregarded the signs, unbelievable!

I also disregard such signs. If they see I'm armed and ask me to leave, I'm happy to take my business elsewhere and leave them at the mercy of 911.

[FOG]

Rick,

I do live alone on some acreage, neighbors are not a concern. When my son visits or others I have precautions. As for over penetration on .223/5.56 compared to most pistol calibers try a little test. Build yourself a “wall” using drywall with insulation in between to your house standards. Place some ¾” plywood 3-5’ behind it and shoot it with your M4 copy and handguns. Check which has lethal/damaging fragments hitting/penetrating the plywood behind.

Disadvantage to rifles is muzzle blast w/o hearing protection. Being off axis but down range of a .308 muzzle blast is disorientating, it’s been called a semi-auto stun grenade.

I also have layers of different motion/intruder protection. I know when people come on the property and move outside. Even surprised a few high school kids who thought they were parking in secret on my property.

S/F, FOG

[alf]

Originally Posted by FOG

Alf,

Quite sure. The official ranges for annual pistol qual are 7, 15 and 25 yards using 25 yard standard American target pasted onto torso silhouettes. The targets turn as their only movement if the range allows it.

I am quite sure that the target was at 100 surveyed yards. I have one of them in my office as we speak, it a low expert but expert non the less.

S/F, FOG

Cool, now i have something to work towards

[Rick Lee]

My Mossberg Mariner in 12 ga. is my preferred home defense piece, though I do keep a SIG P220 in the night table too.

[DARISC]

Originally Posted by Gogar

Having a CCW doesn't make you a cop.

What if you ran towards the sound of gunfire, and the cops came in right after you and mistook you for the shooter?
"NO, I'm the GOOD guy with the gun. HE'S the bad guy with the gun. Promise!"

Or, go one further and let's say you run towards the sound of gunfire with noble thoughts. You see a guy in street clothes with a gun, pointing it around. You be the hero and nail him right in the head. WHOOPS, he was an off-duty police officer and was just about to take down the real shooter when you blew his brains out.

There's just too many ways you (the CCW guy) could make it worse than it already is, IMO.

I'M 100% PRO GUN CONTROL! - Which is to say that them who is totin' should control their use of their gun by exhibiting calmness and intelligence, having given a lot of reasonable forethought regarding possible scenarios within which they might, unfortunately, find themselves.

Well put Gogar.