CCW holders, when would you intervene?

[skipdup]

If it was clear who the shooter was and I had a clean shot, I'd (hopefully) absolutely take it. Even if I missed, I guarantee it would slow him down.

Can't imagine I'd be too keen on hunting a hidden sniper with a pistol.

- Skip

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by frogger

I'm not so sure that carrying a concealed weapon into a mall is welcomed in most jurisdictions, though I could be wrong.

You're incorrect. In most CCW states, you cannot carry in restaurants that serve alcohol and you can be charged with trespassing if a business owner prohibits CCW in their business, sees you carrying, asks you to leave and you refuse. Malls are pretty much CCW territory and I totally ignore the off-limits rules anyway. I even carry in the post office. Why would I disarm myself in places where there is most likely to be a shooting and no cops to do anything about it?

I carry 100% of the very few times I step foot in a mall. But my usual carry piece, a SIG P239 in .40, vs. an AR-15 would be like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Still, if I were alone and within range, I'd try to take the perp out. I am an excellent shooter, but have never been in such a situation.

Gogar, whether you're armed or not, when the cops show up after gun play, they assume everyone is a perp, even a sleeper. Remember the footage of the kids at Columbine all running out with their hands over their heads? You are not safe under any circumstance once gun play has commenced. I'd rather end it, if possible, than wait for 911 dial-a-prayer to save me.

[red-beard]

Shooter was a Felon, so he obtained the firearm illegally. Rifle was described as an SKS.

[Jeff Higgins]

I think most of us can tell the difference between an off duty, or plain clothes cop trying to control the situation and a lunatic on a shooting spree. Like some have mentioned, every situation will be different. Different levels of certainty as to what is going on. None of us have any experience whatsoever in anything remotely approaching this kind of thing. One would hope you could be the hero and save the day, but things could come unravelled so very quickly. I'm sure plenty of CCW holding Walter Mittys run through scenarios like this in their minds, and picture themselves victorious, revelling in attention and glory; tickertape parade and all of that. Hardly ever works out that way.

The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of private firearms defensive situations are to protect your own hide. It's pretty darn rare that a CCW holder is present when the "big one" goes down. Or even when some one else is getting beaten or robbed. I have never actually witnessed such a thing. If I ever do, I would try to help out. I would hope most people would, armed or not. Having a CCW does not make one any more or less obligated to intervene, but it does make one more capable. Maybe in that light it does make one more obligated, but I would do the best I could armed or not.

[red-beard]

Nebraska only passed CCW last year and has only been in effect for something like 11 months. There are probably not too many people licensed to carry a concealed firearm yet.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by red-beard

Shooter was a Felon, so he obtained the firearm illegally. Rifle was described as an SKS.

Well, that would be a dead giveaway that the shooter is not a cop. No cop carries a Chinese junk gun rifle, on duty or off.

[Overpaid Slacker]

I also disagree with the "moral obligation" to intervene. It's easy to casually aver such a thing, but I think it's foolish.

I carry to protect myself and those in my care/custody/control -- not to venture out and save others. A CCW or other permit is not a deputization, nor does it create an imperative to put yourself at risk to intervene... I carry to protect myself, not to put myself at risk or to protect "the public."

As an analogy, I'm an EMT. Do I have a moral obligation to stop at every not-yet-attended-by-first-responders automobile accident? Must I, without any BSI, provide CPR (including mouth-to-mouth) to a crackhead, whose mouth is full of vomit that I come across, off duty? The Peoples' Republic of New Hampshire has answered in the affirmative ... if you're licensed by NH as an EMT, you must stop and render assistance (as long as there is not unreasonable danger to your safety).

OK, blah blah blah. In the shooting hypothetical posed, if I thought I could effectively intervene, I probably would... again, assuming there is nobody else with me that I would be placing in danger by my absence. Remember... if there's one shooter, there very well may be several (Columbine), and if I run off to play hero, leaving my ward behind, I've abandoned them in a very dangerous situation.

JP

[FOG]

Things get a bit more interesting on two way ranges. Lots of handguns are capable of hitting at 100yds, though not as well as a rifle.

The standard USMC pistol qualification is supposedly harder than the CCW course, having the USMC one exempts me from firing the CCW. I, and other, can still shoot an expert score when shooting everything from 100 yards with our CCW handguns. The energy is down and there is even less likelihood of stopping an individual with one hit but…

S/F, FOG

[frogger]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

You're incorrect. In most CCW states, you cannot carry in restaurants that serve alcohol and you can be charged with trespassing if a business owner prohibits CCW in their business, sees you carrying, asks you to leave and you refuse. Malls are pretty much CCW territory and I totally ignore the off-limits rules anyway. I even carry in the post office. Why would I disarm myself in places where there is most likely to be a shooting and no cops to do anything about it?

OK, good to know.

[Rikao4]

?, so the first victim was on the 2nd floor/shooter on 3rd..so I'm shopping..clown next to you pulls out a rifle ..aims downward..gun or no gun..why didnt someone just jump his butt..sure a victim or 2..but if your next to guy..odds are better if you tackle..instead of running

Rika

[FOG]

Rikao4,

The reason is the vast majority of people are very unfamiliar with dynamics of close combat. Add in the whole fight or flight instinct to the lack of study, training and practicable experience and it is easily understandable.

S/F, FOG

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by Rikao4

?, so the first victim was on the 2nd floor/shooter on 3rd..so I'm shopping..clown next to you pulls out a rifle ..aims downward..gun or no gun..why didnt someone just jump his butt..sure a victim or 2..but if your next to guy..odds are better if you tackle..instead of running

Rika

Sounds reasonable. But having been around guns my whole life and, indeed, being around them all day every day, I'm still not sure I'd be able to immediately accept or understand what was happening. I've never been in such a situation and haven't had the tactical training drilled into my head. All I know how to do is shoot real well at the range, not be a cop. When the police shot and killed my neighbor a while back, I heard the gunshot, was pretty sure it was a gunshot and then dismissed it as too improbable and didn't even go to the window to look. Not until the next morning when I saw news trucks all over my street did I believe what had happened.

[jyl]

So, my personal view -

My first priority is safety of family and self. And I know my limitations with the 2" .38. So if the shots sounded like a rifle, I would hide or flee. If I had a chance to take a high-odds shot (say the gunman walks close by and doesn't notice me cowering in a rack of summer dresses) then maybe I would. Who knows what any of us really "would" do. I just hope I wouldn't do somethng stupid and and leave my family without me.

[legion]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

Sounds reasonable. But having been around guns my whole life and, indeed, being around them all day every day, I'm still not sure I'd be able to immediately accept or understand what was happening. I've never been in such a situation and haven't had the tactical training drilled into my head. All I know how to do is shoot real well at the range, not be a cop.

+1

I can't predict my reaction or my ability to recognize such a situation, having never been in one before.

[jyl]

Originally Posted by FOG

Things get a bit more interesting on two way ranges. Lots of handguns are capable of hitting at 100yds, though not as well as a rifle.

The standard USMC pistol qualification is supposedly harder than the CCW course, having the USMC one exempts me from firing the CCW. I, and other, can still shoot an expert score when shooting everything from 100 yards with our CCW handguns. The energy is down and there is even less likelihood of stopping an individual with one hit but…

S/F, FOG

You mean you can reliably hit center mass at 100 yds with a 2" J-frame, with the adrenalin pumping and being shot back at? Hmm . . .

[FOG]

John,

Look into a 1911. It’s flatter for concealment, only slight longer and can engage out to 100 yds. Before someone spouts off about the drop it’s only about an inch more than a .22 lr at 100 yds. There are some aluminum frame 1911s out there if you’re weight conscious.

The only down side is time for more practice. Thinking about it the money difference is irrelevant, the legal costs incurred with use are far more than a high end 1911 and 10-20k of training ammunition.

Edit. No I use 1911s, though I can hit with a POS M9 and almost as well with a SIG. I have trouble with Glocks and can do the slow fire stuff but Glocks and I do not get along very well. I do not carry wheel guns and only own a couple, both 6” barrels. I have never attempted the course of fire with a wheel gun as it doesn’t suit the six round capacity.

S/F, FOG

[Rick Lee]

Sorry, but the percentage of even seasoned shooters who can expertly place a 1911 round at 100 yrds. is extremely small. Such a 1911 would be a pretty fancy gun too and I don't like to carry anything that I can't easily afford to replace, since you will lose it if you ever have to use it. I love my 1911's and maybe they're great as house guns. But I wouldn't expect to use one for distance shooting in a defensive situation. Besides, anything that's 100 yds. from you is not a threat that you can do anything about.

[jyl]

I have a micro-1911 (Detonics CM), I am better w/ it than w/ the J-frame, but it is a heavy little lump (steel frame). Will check out one of the lightweight Commander-sized 1911s.

[Gogar]

Rick, I don't hope you think I insinuated that the shooter may be a cop. I was just trying to create a ridiculous scenario where some whacko starts shooting in a mall, and a bunch of CCW heros all draw their weapons and start shooting each other in an adrenaline-fueled nightmare.

And I do agree with you that when the cops do show up, anyone inside the mall with a gun in their hand better be very, very careful.

[the]

Oh, I'd take him out all right.

But even if I had a gun, I'd keep it in my pocket and take him out by ka-rah-tay. Probably a roundhouse.

Because that's how I roll. Old skool.