question to the gun gurus

charleskieffner · 12-10-2007, 10:09 AM

thinking real real real serious of a taurus .44 mag 2" or 4" barrel ultralite 28.3 oz.

very very familiar w/.44's. i own a super smith(nelson ford custom) 6" , 1/2 lug 629 stainless dual magna ported model. pleased as hell with it and its accuracy. but one 'lil problemo it weighs TOO MUCH!

also i have played with .44 mag underwater bang sticks and a friend of mine mfgs. them here in tempe. one shot into sharks gills and you better be a good aim or a damn fast underwater reloader!!!! really dont want to be that close to sharks and its worthless on bears.

reason for purchase is for backpacking. humping a 60#70# pack aint fun in and of itself. beer weighs ALOT! lol.

soooo....... my question is of taurus owners. do you like your taurus revolver? any problems? anything to be aware of?

their tracker model in stainless comes ported in 2" or 4". but were back to weight issues.

my real question is can you EDM(magna-port) a smith/wesson scandium frame or a taurus titanium/alloy????????

magna porting was a huge quantum leap in controlling a .44 mag. cant say enough good about it.

guns really only gonna be used as a camp/backpack/fish sidearm. really just looking for lightweight pistol. not gonna change calibers since already have dies for .44 mag. so .41 is out of the question.

Jeff Higgins · 12-10-2007, 10:18 AM

How about a stainless Charter Arms Bulldog in .44 Special? I've had one for 20+ years as my lightweight back packing gun and it's been great. They are being made new again, or you can find one at a gun show. They are strong enough for moderate .44 Special loads, like a 240 grainer in the mid 800 fps range. That should be all you need while out bumming around the hills.

charleskieffner · 12-10-2007, 10:33 AM

jeff thats not a bad idea. a "son of sam" limited edition! LOL!

i had a smith/wesson model 329 scandium 4" in my hands. felt very nice. empty weighs in at 26oz. but obviously comes with a hefty price tag when purchased new. hell i'd buy one used and not blink. if i could find one.

have never owned a taurus. roommate came home with a taurus 2" barrel .357 7 shot. and that got the gears going as far as the ultimate backpacker pistole in .44 mag.

have already gone to gunsamerica and gunbroker and the taurus lists at $666 MSRP.

the smith is a WHOPPING $1132MSRP bucks.........YIKES!

just got off phone with magna-port. YES you can EDM scandium(s&w's material) and YES you can EDM taurus' titanium/alloy material.

on stainless its $139 a slot so ......$278 for a pair of magna ports plus shipping

magna-port.com

gonna keep my eye out for a charter arms. boss has one. well built.

magna-ports opinion of taurus..........you get what you pay for and we like smith and wessons. so im still interested in hearing any taurus good or bad stories. i like their price, bottomline. its not a CCW gun, its simply a camp/hike/fish tool.

id10t · 12-10-2007, 10:36 AM

Used (but not much) 329 scandium... http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=86823687

No affiliation, etc.

Jeff Higgins · 12-10-2007, 10:48 AM

If you are going to carry it a lot and only shoot it when you really need to, I would think about skipping the porting. I'm a cast bullet shooter, so that rules it out for me anyway, so maybe I'm a bit biased. Seems like a 2"-3" big bore revolver barks enough without it anyway, especially if you are actually shooting some stiffer magnum loads.

For my little stubby guns like that, I just forego the heavy loads, even if I give up a couple hundred fps. A 240-250 grain bullet at 800-900 fps will take care of anything (or anyone) you'll bump into in your neck of the woods. With loads like that, the porting isn't really needed.

It also gives it one less place to pick up pocket fuzz and stuff, too. A lot of times when I'm just day hiking, I'll drop the little Bulldog into my front pocket on my shorts. Keeps it out of sight so the King County granola crunching, Birkenstock clad, hand-wringing ninnie liberal hikers don't go into a snit when they see it. You probably don't have that problem in your area (yet), so that might not be important to you.

red-beard · red-beard's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

How about a stainless Charter Arms Bulldog in .44 Special? I've had one for 20+ years as my lightweight back packing gun and it's been great. They are being made new again, or you can find one at a gun show. They are strong enough for moderate .44 Special loads, like a 240 grainer in the mid 800 fps range. That should be all you need while out bumming around the hills.

That sounds like a slow .45 ACP round. My 45 Auto will shoot 45ACP +P 230 grain rounds 950 ft/s, all day long. 44 Mag is capable of a lot more!

charleskieffner · 12-10-2007, 10:52 AM

they sure are sweeeeet! 26.OZ vs taurus 28.OZ

and believe me i do count grams when it comes to humping a back pack all over hells creation.

hows this for anal...............sawed off handle to my tooth brush!!!!!!!

each and everytime i go backpacking i spill out all the crap in the pack and delete anything i didnt use. pretty much have it down to a science now. despite that my last pack weighed 70#'s even, for havasupai canyon. tent/sleeper bag/water/food/stove/gas/thermarest /etc.

with either pistol i would only carry 5 in gun with hammer on empty cylinder. despite all the safetys, just dont trust falling w/one. also i will carry (2) HKS speed loaders and get all 6 cylinder holes chamfered for quick reloads along with magna porting. and nite sights.............it never ends!

the search begins..................

charleskieffner · 12-10-2007, 10:55 AM

jeff yes we do have birkenstock crystal viewing type people here. there spawning grounds range from sedona to flagstaff. the vortex of their movement is sedona. the japanese tourists tend to go bonkers when they see you fishing w/a sidearm on!

Jeff Higgins · 12-10-2007, 11:12 AM

Not to derail your thread, Charles, but the funniest case of a backpacker just about wetting their pants over my gun happened about ten years ago on one of our more popular trails. My buddy and I were in the parking lot, changing into our boots, and I had already strapped on the old Blackhawk. These folks went ballistic, insisting I "couldn't" wear "that thing" on a public trail. I politely insisted I could, and would, do just that. They got hysterical, and quite animated.

About that time, a Forest Ranger pulled in. Pretty cute young lady, actually. I thought she would be as clueless about this as these two yahoos, so I was ready to dig in for the long haul. These two flag her down and continue to yell hysterically, pointing at me with THAT GUN. Great. Just flippin' great.

So, cute young Ranger lady strolls on over and asks to see the gun. So I unload it and give it to her. She looks at it for a minute, kind of flipping it around, checking it out pretty good. ".45 Colt? That's an oddball these days. Most guys with Ruger Single Actions go for the .44 mags." "Yup," I said, "I just like the old Colt." "The Blackhawk is a great trail gun", she says as she hands it back. "Have a nice hike. How long you gonna be up there?"

The other two were just about falling through their ass holes with despair by now, and still snivelling hysterically. The Ranger gal turns to them and tells them to knock it off and leave me alone, or she would haul their sorry asses in. It was great. I just wonder if it would still play out like that today...

red-beard · red-beard's Garage

With the REAL wildlife on the trail, you'd be stupid not to carry something.

MT930 · 12-10-2007, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by charleskieffner

jeff yes we do have birkenstock crystal viewing type people here. there spawning grounds range from sedona to flagstaff. the vortex of their movement is sedona. the japanese tourists tend to go bonkers when they see you fishing w/a sidearm on!

thinking real real real serious of a Taurus .44 mag 2" or 4" barrel ultralight 28.3 oz.

They are light, the frames will not handle beefed up hand loads very well. The top strap cracks. I live in the heart of Griz country, the Ruger Red Hawk's & SW are by far the strongest and most popular Griz side arm, with the back country pro's including the state and fed wildlife folks. They are heavy but strong. The Taurus Titanium are popular with the Alaska Bush Pilots but for emergency only no target work with heavy hand loads I think they are fine with factory ammo.

If the japanese tourists can see you your not deep enough in.

Jeff · 12-10-2007, 11:29 AM

Chuck,

I have 2 Taurus .357s.
5 shot 2" and a 7 shot 4".
Haven't had any problems.

charleskieffner · 03:25 AM

as mentioned i wouldnt be loading any hot loads. just federal jacketed hollowpoints. or their equal. slap some nail polish around the primer, and a lil dab a do yah around case meets bullet(very thin or tends to not slide in cylinder) and the bullets waterproof. thats what we do for the underwater bang sticks.

the last hunter safety class i went to with my older son, the instructor pulled a super red hawk that the cylinder exploded as well as broke the backstrap. stainless steel! yikes! guy double loaded his hot loads by accident. was pretty ugly.

i have a host of pistoles to choose from to do what im doing. but 9mm are out, .45's are questionable but better than nothing, and i already have a 6" .44 mag. thats really heavy. really looking at the weight angle only. sure 2" and 4" barrels are going to be a hand full, but just like shooting on the bench it will hurt alot. in the field under a stress situation w/a pissed off bear coming at you..............well your hand hurting when it goes bang is the last thing your gonna worry about. saving yer bacon at that moment is job numero uno.

after our last bear experience on the san carlos rez, and the wolves while hunting up by alpine, girlfriend and i are seriously thinking of renting a cruise america motorhome this summer if we do wyoming and idaho. im sick and tired of not sleeping fer shi!, with critters that can seriously ruin my day, circling the campsite night after night. after about 3 days of no sleep, and sleeping on a cold steel pistol frame LOADED, you tend to kind of get CRABBY about bears!

shooting a bear or wolf here , you may as well find a damn good lawyer if you zap a wolf. on the out of season bear angle, your going to spend a fair amount of time explaining to game and fish WHY! and your food better be strung in a tree! and ice chests locked up in vehicle, and no garbage evident around camp site. having to shoot a bear on the rez............lord knows what hell yer gonna go through with the indians.........i can only imagine its not fun.

the advantage of truck camping IS you can carry everything including (4) kitchen sinks and washer and dryer and big mongo heavy caliber bear rifle vaporizer. when backpacking your really limited to a big caliber pistol, that has to be instant "condition red!" humping a rifle with scope for 3-7-10 days does not really sound like fun, along with a 60-70# pack. and i have hiked enough that getting weight down is really tough, despite titanium this and alum. thats and minimilist tents and all the other space age techno gear offered now a days. its not like im stupid and bringing spare hiking boots, spare jackets pants books etc.. we are only packing what is absolutely needed. no canned crap, all dehydrated food.water, spare fuel,camping gaz burner,water purfier, rain jacket, pants, down jacket,tent(north face mtn 25), down bag(north face ibex).............the basics and it still adds up to 60-70#'s. so weight is the real consideration all around.

the guy we lease a hanger to for his pilatus aeroplane, was telling me about his and his wifes elk hunt in wyoming this year. horsey back hunt with a full blown base camp with chimney sticking out of base tent. not anything like ive ever done. our camps are.....well just picture 4 guys crammed into 2 axle enclosed trailer with mr. heat going and snow up to our keesters. anyway from the moment they downed their elk they had to deal with silverbacks.........REALLY REALLY BIG SILVERBACKS! ie mr. grizzly. blood scent wafted thru the air and got the damn bears attention each time and they came a running for din din!

their drill their is to grab back straps, rack...............AND SPLIT! basically leaving ASAP and leaving meat for grizzlies to devour instead of grizzlies following them all the way back to camp. sounds good on paper............but guess what? grizzlies followed them back to camp. he and his wife damn near crapped themslves silly with so much bear fun he seriously doubts ever doing it again there in wyoming. and its not like this was his first elk hunt or visit by a bear. this guy and his wife have been hunting for years. he said the bear populations are just exploding due to no trapping and limited number hunts. ie. in the old days bears were trapped and shot year around when seen by ranchers.

soooooooo.......... the same is happening here with the predator populations, due to stringent trapping laws and limited predator hunts. sooooooooo its a very distinct possibility if your hunting/camping/fishing/hiking being a bear statistic. and im not planning on becoming a MEAL for any juan!

Joeaksa · 12-11-2007, 05:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Not to derail your thread, Charles, but the funniest case of a backpacker just about wetting their pants over my gun happened about ten years ago on one of our more popular trails. My buddy and I were in the parking lot, changing into our boots, and I had already strapped on the old Blackhawk. These folks went ballistic, insisting I "couldn't" wear "that thing" on a public trail. I politely insisted I could, and would, do just that. They got hysterical, and quite animated.

About that time, a Forest Ranger pulled in. Pretty cute young lady, actually. I thought she would be as clueless about this as these two yahoos, so I was ready to dig in for the long haul. These two flag her down and continue to yell hysterically, pointing at me with THAT GUN. Great. Just flippin' great.

So, cute young Ranger lady strolls on over and asks to see the gun. So I unload it and give it to her. She looks at it for a minute, kind of flipping it around, checking it out pretty good. ".45 Colt? That's an oddball these days. Most guys with Ruger Single Actions go for the .44 mags." "Yup," I said, "I just like the old Colt." "The Blackhawk is a great trail gun", she says as she hands it back. "Have a nice hike. How long you gonna be up there?"

The other two were just about falling through their ass holes with despair by now, and still snivelling hysterically. The Ranger gal turns to them and tells them to knock it off and leave me alone, or she would haul their sorry asses in. It was great. I just wonder if it would still play out like that today...

Is she single? Woman like that is hard to find!

Groesbeck Hurricane · 12-11-2007, 07:53 AM

Charles,

Most used Taurus I have seen have rust on them. Don't know if it is the user or they are not the best built in the industry. Stick with Ruger, Smith, Colt, Sauer (in .45LC), etc. Get a used one, check it out really well and enjoy it. That is a good way to avoid the high initial cost.

charleskieffner · 12-11-2007, 08:15 AM

just found a taurus 444 util at IMPACTGUNS.com in UTAH for the measly sum of $479 bucks. NEW!

if i can find a used s&w 329pd i'll go with the smith just becuz. but if i cant i will spring for the taurus new. im sure there are a few smiths that hammered a few peoples hands and now their selling them cuz they yell ouch mutha fucher when they light them off!

hell after reading all the old gun writers over the years, suffering carpal tunnel from .44 mags over the years, i took their advice, and have hogue grips, had it magna ported and USE A GLOVE!

im just gonna have to ask mr. bear to stop fer a second, while i put my glove on! LOL!

taurus makes their tracker .44 in 2" barrel ported from the factory! yikes that would fer sure put the "OUCH" on yer hand and more than likely blind the hell outta you at dusk or dark conditions!

Jeff Higgins · 12-11-2007, 08:47 AM

I still have a big old knob on the joint of my right thumb from where a 3" M29's cylinder latch nailed it. And that was 20 years ago. Shooting Elmer's old load of the Lyman #429421 over 22 grains of 2400, the recoil flipped it up so hard that damn latch took the meat off right down to the bone. Granted, losing a 1/4" diameter chunk of thumb meat would be far preferable to some other outcomes in bear country. Little guns with big horsepower do hurt, though, and about all you can do is lessen that a bit.

Have you considered a single action? Cut a Ruger down to about 3" and put their aluminum grip frame on it. I find the grip shape really helps with the big boomers, and there are no protrusions to bite you like that damn latch. Not the quickest to reload, especially if you cut them way down and eliminate the ejector rod, but I'll make that concession. If I have to stop to reload after shooting at Mr. Bear, I'm probably in big trouble anyway.

So, do you know why Alaskan guides insist their clients remove the front sights from their revolvers? Most clients guess it's because any griz encounter will be so close they won't need it, and it will come out of the holster faster. But they would be wrong... It is purely so that (when the bear is done with you) it won't hurt so bad when the guide has to pull it back out of your ass. It's kind of their endearing way of saying a handgun ain't gonna help much.... Still, most of us feel better with one.

charleskieffner · 12-11-2007, 09:09 AM

jeff........the other suggestion is to wipe bacon grease on all of your bullets and casings. that way when mr. bear is coming at you at mach speed you can eject the shells hoping mr. bear will stop long enough to smell the cases and give you about 3 seconds to run like hell!

there are a ton of bear stories real and embellished out there to read and hopefully learn a lesson from. if it was doable id carry a shotgun, but now your back to weight issues.

im gonna go up to gary raeders place in flagstaff. the pistol parlor. hes the guy that has shot every big game animal on the planet with a handgun! he really knows his stuff and see what he thinks or what hes got to offer. be it smith/ruger/taurus/single/double action.

even though some in this state want to reintroduce grizzlies again, the wolf debacle here probably has already put the kabosh on that idea for good. so here in az/new mex/utah/colo all i have to worry about is black bears. when we do go north then its a different playing field with the grizzies.

its money that i dont mind spending since it concerns my life or g/friends life and is the last resort in the truest sense of the word.

heres the gig with this one as soon as i buy whomevers .44mag. buy it, take to range, site in, take home, clean hell out of it, place in holster, place in safe.

wait til i go back packing, and then strap it on. and pray i dont have to use it.

its a hell of an interesting topic, shooting grizzlies and putting them down with a handgun. killing a shark is childs play in comparison. take .44 mag bang stick with waterproofed .44 mag hollowpoint or even a blank.........place on gill area or head and WAA LAA (1) dead shark. blanks are used because of massive air embolism introduced into sharks body shuts them down ASAP! problem if you have to use one is all of his buddies going into feeding frenzy! so either way its your last chance effort to buy some time, and neither do i want to experience.

Jeff Higgins · 12-11-2007, 10:27 AM

Hunters and outdoorsmen embellishing a story? Say it isn't so... I can't imagine who would do such a thing...

All kidding aside, one of the more experienced and pragmatic of the current gun writers in Phil Shoemaker out of Alaska. His recommendation for a "bear gun" is any double action revolver at all, with a very short barrel, in at least .357 mag. And this is for use in his stomping grounds; excellent bear country. Most other guys' "at least..." starts with the .44 mag and goes up from there. Shoemaker's reasoning bears (pardon the pun) consideration.

In his observations of fatal attacks, and interviews with surviving bear attack victims he has encountered, there is one constant. They never saw it coming. We would all like to think there would be enough warning to unlimber the ol' hogleg and let Old Ephraim have it right between the eyes as he is closing on us. That apparently hardly ever happens. So, we wind up totally unsuspecting and knocked to the ground. Underneath some one that is trying his best to chew us up into little bitty pieces. Now what?

Well, the stubby little double action is retrieved from its holster (hopefully not knocked out by the initial contact). Now we go to work. From under his chin, firing up trying to get the brain. Shoemaker says a .38 Special has the penetration to get that far through the soft underside of a bear's jaw and front half of the neck.

The other thing he points out is that the gun needs to have a grip shape you can hold on to when it is really slippery. Like with your own blood, because there might be lots of it by then. He says to take it out shooting with the grips all greased up with Crisco or something, to see if you can hang on. Yikes.

Not pleasant thoughts, these.

charleskieffner · 12-11-2007, 11:02 AM

wow thats sobering ! just was surfing bear attacks and your dead right no one saw it coming. valid info to heed big time.

watched a PBS special on this hippie dude up in alaska who tags bears for alaska game and fish part of the year, and then guides the other part of year. obviously he is not alone and his amigo carries big big big caliber rifle for back up. they shoot bears with tranquilizer gun, do all the scientific stuff etc. also they trap them and then check traps each day and tranquilize bear while in trap. its a non lethal trap. yep these guys were NUTS!

watched in AWE as they went about their daily duties setting traps, getting data etc. as they were walking thru the alder bush they heard a noise and the lead guy stopped. his partner behind and video guy behind him. it about as much time that a BLINK consists of, all caught on film, a grizz is coming at them FULL BORE! first guy aims rifle fires and down it goes in creek bed at their feet!

SUM OF A BEEEEEEEE-AAACCCH!

had me rivited to my chair staring at how close they came to becoming bear poop!

another common item on attacks either real or bluffed charge..........their ears were down kinda like a cats ears when their pissed!

your only gonna get one chance and ya better make it good. some really hairy stories listed under bear attacks on the web including some youtube video attacks!