All Detectives please respond..Employee + time sheet fraud..

yasir · 12-15-2007, 05:26 AM

Have an employee ( Office manager ) who'e previous time sheets shows time clocking in ( swiping the card ) at or around 7am ( office hours 8-5.30) while the office alarm record shows the alarm being decativated around 7.45 am...So far here's what i have figured out...
1)-She's the only one who has the password on the computer to change the times and every time one makes any changes " + " appears next to the time indicating that the time was manually entered...So if the alarm record shows that the alarm was deactivated at 7.46 am and she has the time +7.10 am,i know she is lying........however
2)-I see quite a few instances where the alarm was deactivated at 7.45 am and she has the time as 7.23 am with out any " + " against the time ? How could she pull this off ?
I am now waiting to get the full alarm activation/deactivation record from the co and also planning on talking to the time swiping card co as to how one can play around with the system....meanwhile do you all have any suggestions ?

NICKG · 12-15-2007, 05:32 AM

i would have the alarm company come in and verify that they syetesm is clocking time correctly, i would let her know what they are doing and drop hints that time of alram disarming and time sheets are not jiving...then see if that corrects it
also, change the password on the clock..there is no reason that you should allow people to change it. do this without saying anything, that will fix that

stomachmonkey · 12-15-2007, 05:33 AM

Change the password on the computer for starters.

Oh Haha · 12-15-2007, 05:44 AM

not a detective but do manage a company.

Do you havea security camera with a date/time stamp function. You could see the person coming and going and at what time. Powerful evidence of you have it.

Neilk · 05:50 AM

With daylight savings time ending late this year, I wouldn't be surprised it the clock was off an hour. However, her time would still be off. I would imagine that her log in time should be within 5 minutes of the turning off the alarm.

Is the time clock hooked into her PC? I suspect she is changing the time on her PC before logging in on the time clock, clocking in and then changing the time back if that's possible.

One thing you can do, if you have Windows XP is pull up the Event Viewer and check her login times.

slakjaw · 12-15-2007, 05:51 AM

Why dont you just ask her.

Oh Haha · 12-15-2007, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slakjaw

Why dont you just ask her.

My belief is that if an employee is lying about the time they start, what else are they lying about?

We deal with cash so this thought is usually not far from my thinking when I see something out of sorts in my business. YMMV

EDIT: By asking, you may not be able to get the evidence you need to convict.

Walter_Middie · Walter_Middie's Garage

Yasir,

You say you have an employee......Please clarify that this person works for you and not with you.

Porsche-O-Phile · Porsche-O-Phile's Garage

What kind of business environment are you fostering if your people feel the need to have to B.S. about 13 minutes worth of time in the morning or whatever?

In most businesses (not all, but most), it ultimately doesn't matter if a person shows up a little bit early or a little bit late. In my experience if you treat people like professionals, they will act like it in return. If they're a few minutes late, they'll often stay a few minutes late to give an honest day - or report their time honestly. Not all, but most.

Using a time clock is one of the most degrading and confrontational gestures an employer can make, IMHO. It says "I don't trust you" and simultaneously "you're only as good/important as the minutes you're here". Perhaps I'm too trusting, but I tend to tell people that they're professionals and I am extending them professional trust, and that I expect them to conduct themselves accordingly and not to do anything that would ever betray that.

That said, in some certain businesses it's appropriate, but I've never worked at a place where you were required to punch a clock without this constant feeling that one was just chattel to the company in the back of one's mind. It sets the stage for a confrontational management/employee relationship, IMO. Some examples:

A few years ago I worked flying cargo for a local freight outfit. Although I was considered and called a "professional pilot", I was required to clock in. Company's justification was that they needed to document any potential problems with the flight crews if a flight ever got off late (we were carrying highly time-critical stuff like organs for transplant, bank transfers, "top tier" overnight courier materials, etc.) As a professional charged with that responsibility, you "get it". You know you need to leave adequate time to get weather, preflight, file with ATC, get the aircraft fueled and loaded, etc. The fact that you had to punch a clock like some McDonald's employee never sat well with the crews (including me). There was a LOT of bad blood between the pilots and the company here. One of the reasons I left. A guy I worked with was actually written up for clocking in ONE MINUTE late. That stays on his pilot file forever, even though his flight got off on time without problem.

While I (and the others) certainly understood the need for enforcing an appreciation for time sensitivity in that particular line of work, I always felt like there was an underlying attitude by the company that the "professionals" they were employing somehow couldn't be trusted to get their flights off on time, even though they were being trusted with their own airplanes and shipments of valuable items (including cash for ATMs, etc. on some occasions). Very weird situation. It never sat well with me and was corrosive to the working environment.

Contrast that to my current job in an architectural office where I am a "design professional". There are some days I'm there early and some days I'm there late. I (and my co-workers) ALWAYS report an honest day's billable hours on the sheets (which are for bookkeeping and client billing, not a "time clock" per se). While we are paid overtime and have certainly availed ourselves of it in the past where appropriate, there are plenty of times we've given the firm (and clients, by extension) freebies by staying late because "getting this out today" or whatever was the professionally appropriate thing to do. Cost of doing business, IMHO. Big picture.

Point is, if you make people punch a clock, there's an automatic assumption that you don't trust them and they'll feel less remorse about trying to circumvent it. If not and you tell people that you're trusting them at their words to conduct themselves in a professional manner and to do whatever it takes to get the job/mission done, they respond. I believe in telling people that they are entrusted with the reputation of the company (plus their own), and to not abuse that trust. It tends to work. Even so, I'd certainly keep an eye on people to make sure you don't have one of the rare ones that would abuse the privilege, but I think the attitude counts for a lot. . . If you're concerned about fostering an open workplace environment.

mikester · 12-15-2007, 07:25 AM

I work for a large multinational company and am salaried. Every single person that I am aware of does a time card. I don't feel degraded in the least I also don't feel like I am not trusted. I'm salaried though so I just confirm I was there working regular hours that day or on vacation. Hourly folks should expect to do a time card for their own protection. It is standard documentation between an employer and employee and both should insist on it. Otherwise neither will have a leg to stand on if there is a dispute.

At the same time I worked for Sony for a while and never did a time card and they never even tracked my sick or vacation time. I didn't care for the environment as it seemed very disorganized - but - whatever.

stomachmonkey · 12-15-2007, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

What kind of business environment are you fostering if your people feel the need to have to B.S. about 13 minutes worth of time in the morning or whatever?

In most businesses (not all, but most), it ultimately doesn't matter if a person shows up a little bit early or a little bit late. In my experience if you treat people like professionals, they will act like it in return. If they're a few minutes late, they'll often stay a few minutes late to give an honest day - or report their time honestly. Not all, but most.

Using a time clock is one of the most degrading and confrontational gestures an employer can make, IMHO. It says "I don't trust you" and simultaneously "you're only as good/important as the minutes you're here". Perhaps I'm too trusting, but I tend to tell people that they're professionals and I am extending them professional trust, and that I expect them to conduct themselves accordingly and not to do anything that would ever betray that.

That said, in some certain businesses it's appropriate, but I've never worked at a place where you were required to punch a clock without this constant feeling that one was just chattel to the company in the back of one's mind. It sets the stage for a confrontational management/employee relationship, IMO. Some examples:

A few years ago I worked flying cargo for a local freight outfit. Although I was considered and called a "professional pilot", I was required to clock in. Company's justification was that they needed to document any potential problems with the flight crews if a flight ever got off late (we were carrying highly time-critical stuff like organs for transplant, bank transfers, "top tier" overnight courier materials, etc.) As a professional charged with that responsibility, you "get it". You know you need to leave adequate time to get weather, preflight, file with ATC, get the aircraft fueled and loaded, etc. The fact that you had to punch a clock like some McDonald's employee never sat well with the crews (including me). There was a LOT of bad blood between the pilots and the company here. One of the reasons I left. A guy I worked with was actually written up for clocking in ONE MINUTE late. That stays on his pilot file forever, even though his flight got off on time without problem.

While I (and the others) certainly understood the need for enforcing an appreciation for time sensitivity in that particular line of work, I always felt like there was an underlying attitude by the company that the "professionals" they were employing somehow couldn't be trusted to get their flights off on time, even though they were being trusted with their own airplanes and shipments of valuable items (including cash for ATMs, etc. on some occasions). Very weird situation. It never sat well with me and was corrosive to the working environment.

Contrast that to my current job in an architectural office where I am a "design professional". There are some days I'm there early and some days I'm there late. I (and my co-workers) ALWAYS report an honest day's billable hours on the sheets (which are for bookkeeping and client billing, not a "time clock" per se). While we are paid overtime and have certainly availed ourselves of it in the past where appropriate, there are plenty of times we've given the firm (and clients, by extension) freebies by staying late because "getting this out today" or whatever was the professionally appropriate thing to do. Cost of doing business, IMHO. Big picture.

Point is, if you make people punch a clock, there's an automatic assumption that you don't trust them and they'll feel less remorse about trying to circumvent it. If not and you tell people that you're trusting them at their words to conduct themselves in a professional manner and to do whatever it takes to get the job/mission done, they respond. I believe in telling people that they are entrusted with the reputation of the company (plus their own), and to not abuse that trust. It tends to work. Even so, I'd certainly keep an eye on people to make sure you don't have one of the rare ones that would abuse the privilege, but I think the attitude counts for a lot. . . If you're concerned about fostering an open workplace environment.

I agree. But some environments it is necessary.

One of my former staff was a vampire.

It was a good day if I could get him in before 2 in the afternoon.

Mostly I let him work the hours that kept him productive, usually a self imposed night shift.

I'd come in in the morning and could tell he was there because my office couch had been slept on and his projects were sitting there waiting for me to review.

I hated it but his work product was much better when left to manage his own time.

The rest of the staff had a flexible schedule.

They could get in as early as 8 or as late as 10 am. The time they arrived dictated when they could leave. If in at 8 they could leave at 4, in at 10 leave at 6.

It helped ease tensions between the staff without kids and the staff with.

The childless usually stayed the latest and resented the caregivers having to rush home to their children. Since they were all obligated to put in the same hours it was irrelevant what time they showed up.

p911dad · p911dad's Garage

We have guards in my building 24/7, so I don't know much about alarms. But, if she is alone in the building, is it possible she is re-arming the alarm after she gets to her station because she is frightened of being in the place alone? Or would that show up on the clock record? Maybe a dumb question..

livi · 12-15-2007, 09:07 AM

Frank Drebin here. What can I do for you.

9dreizig · 12-15-2007, 09:19 AM

Important questions to answer:
is she hot?
are you boinking her?
if so, does she have pictures or hotel receipts?
do you think she's ripping you off in other places ?
why would you have an important position such as this as an hourly employee?

yasir · 12-15-2007, 09:51 AM

It's a medical office and unforutnately she happens to be the office manager....The problem is that i trusted her like i would trust any good friend and yet she did what any greedy employee would do....i never checked the time she clocked in or clocked out of the office so that's why she thought heck why not just screw the guy and manipulated the times right and left....what amazesme me is that one sat ( off hrs 8-11.30 am ) her time sheet shows clocking in at 12.05 pm and clocking out at 4.00 pm and guess what,she had 4 hours in ****ing over time

I am just afraid that if i fire her or confront her,which i will though (already taking her managerial duties away from her as of Jan,08 ),she might play around with the financial part of the practice not to mention creating other hardship,not that i have ever represented anything wrong...
Btw a friend is coming over to the office first thing monday morning,if not tomorrow to copy the hard drive....

Monday every employee will have his/her own password for the alarm system so that we know who came in and out of the office..which she was suppose to have done back in august '07....
Thank you all for listening to me ...and please learn from this incident...

Joeaksa · 12-15-2007, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by livi

Frank Drebin here. What can I do for you.

You are a fluffer AND a detective? What else do you do?

Change all the passwords and go from there. Tell everyone its an audit and start checking.

LakeCleElum · 12-15-2007, 12:51 PM

The action you take depends on where you want to end up with this. You have a wide range of options:
1) Is she a valued employee you wish to counsel and change her behavior? or at the other end:
2) Do you wish to criminally prosecute for fraud?

There is a wide range of actions in between these two. The more serious you are about taking action, the more documentation you need. At the very least:
1) Have a forensic exam done on her computer.
2) Install camera and record her actions
3) Have alarm company verify your what you suspect.
4) Make a police report and ask they forward it to a prosecutor for consideration of charges.

OR, call her in for a counseling session, explain you value her skills, confront her and ask her to explain her actions.......