Jeremy Clarkson on Scoobie Roos...

[onewhippedpuppy]

I should have written, not MUCH faster. If I recall the article I read, I think it was C&D, it was quicker than the old STi, but not dramatically so. I think the power is about the same, but peaks earlier. All the new gizmos help it go around the track quicker though.

It starts a bit under $35k, but the BBS wheels are $2k, BBS & navigation are $3800. My guess is, most will at least have the BBS option. Still too much, in my opinion. I'd rather have a Mazdaspeed 3 for much less money.

[Komenda Fan]

Petter Solberg was partially responsible for the push that took the STI from a sedan to a hatchback. The hatchback has a lower polar moment of inertia then the sedan, which improves its handling around a rally stage. If you look at the current crop of WRC cars, you will see that all the competitive cars are hatchbacks. Probably the reason why Mitsubishi still hasn't gone back in as a full WRC car, they want to keep the sedan layout for the EVO.

In defence of the STI (and since I'm disappointed, its not a vigorous defence) $35k buys you a 320hp AWD machine with a lot of performance features. Where else could you get that? EVO is heavier, less powerful and slower, Audi is heavier, less powerful, slower and more expensive, VW R32, same story, can you get a 335i with X-drive? Is X-drive even a proper AWD (I don't know, maybe someone can enlighten me).

The thing I respect about the STI is that Subaru spent their time and money on performance, and decided to forgo luxuries and styling for speed. As a guy interested in performance, I can respect that. Too many "fast" cars today are luxo-barges. 500bhp is great, but not if the car weighs north of 4000lbs. Too few manufacturers are building genuine performance cars, too much luxury weight, too many flappy paddle gearboxes.

[Paul K]

The Subaru set here in the US is vastly different to that in the UK, as Clarkson describes. I think the man is a genius. Clarkson for Prime Minister!

Cheers,

Paul.

[onewhippedpuppy]

I'll take the 300 HP, 3300 lb, RWD, manual transmission BMW 135i. Modern 2002? Yes please. Oh yeah, and it starts at $35k.

Not AWD, but since when is AWD a requirement for a sports car? Nothing against AWD, but unless you plan to rally it, not exactly a requirement.

[RallyJon]

This is a Buick Lucerne. It also costs about $35k nicely equipped. It has a nice gushy automatic transmission. Who needs a stick shift? Let's post more pictures of $35k cars that can't hold an STI's shorts.

[onewhippedpuppy]

How so? 135i should do 0-60 in under 5 seconds, based on the 5 second time that the heavier 335i puts down. Factory sport suspension, LSD, lighter weight, faster, I'll bet it will beat an STi around the track as well. All with an interior that doesn't look like it was plucked from a Kia.

I've always like the WRX and STi, my only point is it's too damn much.

[gprsh924]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

How so? 135i should do 0-60 in under 5 seconds, based on the 5 second time that the heavier 335i puts down. Factory sport suspension, LSD, lighter weight, faster, I'll bet it will beat an STi around the track as well. All with an interior that doesn't look like it was plucked from a Kia.

I've always like the WRX and STi, my only point is it's too damn much.

+1

At the end of the day, you are driving a nearly $40k subaru

[RallyJon]

The STI's drivetrain sophistication is the big difference. Even my old '04 STI was just extraordinary in how it put the power down in corners. A 2WD car--even with LSD and all sorts of electronic aids--just can't come close to the hand-of-God feel of an STI. With the common 50 or 100 extra ft-lbs of torque that can be easily added to an STI or x35i, the difference will be even more profound.

Shame that Jeremy is such a doddering old man that he couldn't be bothered.

He is right about one thing. I cringe whenever I see some faux gangsta in his knit cap slouched down in an STI. Of course I see the same thing in half the M3s around here, too, so it's certainly not just a Subaru thing.

[berettafan]

Originally Posted by mikez

Jeremy Clarkson
But there’s another, easier way of establishing whether someone is two spanners short of a tool box. Just ask them this simple question: “Are you wearing a Subaru rally jacket?” Because if they are, you will need to speak more slowly.

honestly, where is the 'genius' in this? he makes a joke and then tells you why it's funny? if it's genius you want to experience go listen to Eddie Izzard. THAT man has a brain in his head and he doesn't need to leave a trail of hints to the punchline.

[SLO-BOB]

Originally Posted by RallyJon

A 2WD car--even with LSD and all sorts of electronic aids--just can't come close to the hand-of-God feel of an STI.

Puh-leez! I've seen as many STis in my rear view mirror as the windshield of my "2WD" 964. I like STis and they are fast cars, but let's keep a grip on reality.

Imo - Suburu as a whole, now shares your skewed vision of what the STi is. The reality is, it's a pumped up econobox that now costs as much as what it was trying to keep up with, thus negating it's value. Furthermore, it's an insult to compare the 135i to the STi let alone a Buick. Are you really that removed from objective automotive analysis? I thought Clarkson was kidding about you Suby types but........

I'm with you OWP! However, I'm going to be on the list for the first Tii that sees these parts. Rest assured, it will have more STis behind it than my 964. It is one sweet ride.

[onewhippedpuppy]

The only thing better would be if Porsche built a back-to-basics, simple version of the Cayman to compete with the 135i. That would be sublime.

[berettafan]

w/ a targa roof.

[RallyJon]

Are you really that removed from objective automotive analysis?

Your post is a combination of stereotypes and ignorance.

Torsional rigidity? Advantage Subaru.

Crash safety? Advantage Subaru.

Drivetrain? HUGE advantage Subaru.

Brakes? BMWs have always had awful brakes, and the STI's are on a level with Porsche's.

Engine? Subaru won engine of the year for the STI engine. BMW won it for the 35i engine.

Cushy, luxo plastics? BMW wins for sure.

Inverted panels and weird creases? BMW has the lead, but the new STI is closing the gap.

Ability to bias the underinformed? BMW does have a good grip on that one.

[porkee]

Yeah he's a funny guy.... LOL there for sure!

But then there's the dark side of his humour from the following episode in case you haven't seen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DExG0qNsIM4

[SLO-BOB]

Originally Posted by RallyJon

Your post is a combination of stereotypes and ignorance.

I can't even imagine where you come up with that. Stereotype? Uhhhh.....do you mean against Suburu? Japanese? Rally? STi crowd? Blacks? Please specify because you lost me.

Ignorant? Can't say I agree. While I don't own a STi, I have a LOT of friends that do. I've driven them on street and track. As mentioned earlier - I like them. I've run with them in my 911 on the track. I've seen STis at their limit, and I've felt STis at their limit. Oddly enough, most of this occured at BMW (the marque you seem to detest) driver's schools. Some at PCA events. So your assertion that I'm ignorant simply shows that you do not know how to objectively argue, let alone objectively assess cars. You wear your bias on your sleeve. No doubt some name calling is next on your agenda.

Speaking of objective assessment, I question the validity of your statements. Where did you find crash analysis on the new Suby? How about the new 1 series? Tell us all you know in one sentence (which seems fitting) about the torsional rigidity of the new 1 series. Tell me about the brakes- what kind are they? fact is, if you knew anything about the new Tii that is coming out, you would recognize it for what it is, incomparable to the Suburu.

Now if you want to talk Mustangs and Suburus.....well, then you're on to something.

[Steve PH]

Ok I'll bite!

Torsional rigidity? Advantage Subaru. = Are you sure? Do you have the figures to back this up?

Crash safety? Advantage Subaru. = Ditto ?

Drivetrain? HUGE advantage Subaru. =Well yes and no, the BMWs will be lighter, the engine sits further back and 4wd no matter how good it is will only ever give you improved traction out of bends and maybe a little more stability under braking. Actual cornering speed isn't improved by 4x4.

Brakes? BMWs have always had awful brakes, and the STI's are on a level with Porsche's. = Historically true but is it now the case?

Engine? Subaru won engine of the year for the STI engine. BMW won it for the 35i engine.

Cushy, luxo plastics? BMW wins for sure.= yup!

Inverted panels and weird creases? BMW has the lead, but the new STI is closing the gap. = Not going to argue this one!

[1fastredsc]

Just to clarify some miss information, the new STI is built on it's own designed chassis that according to subaru is much stiffer than the normal impreza "econobox" chassis as per an autoblog article i read a while ago. Continue BMW circle jerk Oh and the STI is 3350 lbs i believe.

[SLO-BOB]

Originally Posted by 1fastredsc

Just to clarify some miss information, the new STI is built on it's own designed chassis that according to subaru is much stiffer than the normal impreza "econobox" chassis as per an autoblog article i read a while ago. Continue BMW circle jerk Oh and the STI is 3350 lbs i believe.

This wasn't a BMW "circlejerk" until someone compared the BMW to a Buick. Opinions vary, but it's amusing to hear such insults from a STi owner because the STi, while a very nice car, is built on an econobox platform. Thank you for clarifying that it's a very stiff econobox platform - but it's still a box. Why is this bad? Only because it costs too much money now and diverges from the original product philosophy - a very fast, capable car at a reasonable (but never cheap) price. That is what made the STi such a cool car. Now it's too damn much money imo.

As far as the BMW 1 series, after reading up on it a bit (the latest Roundel) I think it falls in the same catagory as the STi in two respects - it's too expensive and it's too heavy. Therefore, I retract my earlier assertion that I would buy it for the same money as the STi because it appears that is not an option. (see 135i thread if you're interested)

You may think I was being derisive when I made a Mustang STi comparison earlier. Not so. In fact, right now the Mustang might be a real bargain with the weak dollar and dealer discounting. I'm not crazy about the looks and I've never sat in one, let alone driven one. I have seen them on the track. They are very fast. Lots of HP for the $$.

[stuartj]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

I should have written, not MUCH faster. If I recall the article I read, I think it was C&D, it was quicker than the old STi, but not dramatically so. I think the power is about the same, but peaks earlier. All the new gizmos help it go around the track quicker though.

It starts a bit under $35k, but the BBS wheels are $2k, BBS & navigation are $3800. My guess is, most will at least have the BBS option. Still too much, in my opinion. I'd rather have a Mazdaspeed 3 for much less money.

You think a Mazda 3 and an STi are comparable cars?

[stuartj]

Originally Posted by SLO-BOB

This wasn't a BMW "circlejerk" until someone compared the BMW to a Buick. Opinions vary, but it's amusing to hear such insults from a STi owner because the STi, while a very nice car, is built on an econobox platform. Thank you for clarifying that it's a very stiff econobox platform - but it's still a box. Why is this bad? Only because it costs too much money now and diverges from the original product philosophy - a very fast, capable car at a reasonable (but never cheap) price. That is what made the STi such a cool car. Now it's too damn much money imo.

As far as the BMW 1 series, after reading up on it a bit (the latest Roundel) I think it falls in the same catagory as the STi in two respects - it's too expensive and it's too heavy. Therefore, I retract my earlier assertion that I would buy it for the same money as the STi because it appears that is not an option. (see 135i thread if you're interested)

You may think I was being derisive when I made a Mustang STi comparison earlier. Not so. In fact, right now the Mustang might be a real bargain with the weak dollar and dealer discounting. I'm not crazy about the looks and I've never sat in one, let alone driven one. I have seen them on the track. They are very fast. Lots of HP for the $$.

I can tell you from direct experience that the only area where a (non/lightly modded) 964 exceeds a non modded WrX (and not an STi) is in its long legs. The Porsche will go much faster at the top end. The fastest Ive seen on a WRX in 217kmh (radar checked on a proving bowl during a, err, rally) and the 964 will eat that. Else, the Wrx is the equal of the 964. Till it rains ofcourse.

STis will eat 964s them for breakfast, albeit they are (still I think) elctroniclly limited to around 200kmh.

I have both a 964 and a WRX and have driven them both in various forms of comepetive motorsport. If you are going faster than STis on the track, it because of you, holding all else equal.