Who will pay for the sin of murdering the unborn?

[svandamme]

Originally Posted by skipdup

Actually, no. I don't get it.

Do we impose our views of murder on others? Stealing? etc???

religious folks consider it a murder from the second the sperm and the egg cell become one

and some people think that's not the case

the actual time when it becomes murder is debatable, and that's where the religious folks impose their view...


the point is: regardless of the viewpoint being religion based or not
there is no right to impose that view(eg, "it's murder even if you abort 1 second after the sperm and egg become one") onto others who have another opinion on the matter


now get it?

[skipdup]

Originally Posted by Mule

...
And guess what, I wouldn't want him making laws based on his religion. That would absolutely rule out these sleaze bags who are trying to shift our govt in that direction.

So, you're saying abortion is ONLY a religious argument?

Are you also saying that those who are anti-abortion are also sleazebags who want to shift our gov't in that direction? (I'm honestly not clear what you meant here)

Do you really think people like me (and the others participating on this thread) want to force "religion" on people like you? Force you to pray, etc. Who is it? Me? Jeff Higgins? Seahawk? Trekkor? Name the people, that you're talking and arguing with, on this thread, that want to force religious beliefs on you.

Can you not understand that abortion could be considered an issue just like murder, prostitution, stealing, etc. Something that's wider than "just" religion. Open your mind man. Calling us religious zealots because we're anti-abortion is silly!!! I am not a religious zealot. It's freakin silly.

What if we were discussing Murder. Like me murdering my neighbor across the street. If I were anti-murder, would you be calling me a religious zealot? Murder is VERY clearly a religious belief. What about stealing - another religious belief.

The difference between you and me (I think) is that I believe I understand your point of view. Heck, at one time I probably held very similar point of view. However, You seem to miss mine (and those like me) completely - at least that's the conclusion I've come to based on your totally irrelevant arguments based on religious dogma.

- Skip

[skipdup]

Originally Posted by svandamme

religious folks consider it a murder from the second the sperm and the egg cell become one

and some people think that's not the case

the actual time when it becomes murder is debatable, and that's where the religious folks impose their view...


the point is: regardless of the viewpoint being religion based or not
there is no right to impose that view(eg, "it's murder even if you abort 1 second after the sperm and egg become one") onto others who have another opinion on the matter


now get it?

Are you actually saying it's OK for you to determine when it's murder - but not OK for religious people to determine when it's murder?

Is it murder 10 minutes before natural birth?

So, no. Still don't get it. But, I am trying...

[Mule]

Originally Posted by skipdup

So, you're saying abortion is ONLY a religious argument?

Look at who's making the argument, religious people.

Are you also saying that those who are anti-abortion are also sleazebags who want to shift our gov't in that direction? (I'm honestly not clear what you meant here)

I said it before. Nitwits on both sides of this one.

Do you really think people like me (and the others participating on this thread) want to force "religion" on people like you? Force you to pray, etc. Who is it? Me? Jeff Higgins? Seahawk? Trekkor? Name the people, that you're talking and arguing with, on this thread, that want to force religious beliefs on you.

Would you vote for an anti-abortion amendment to the constitution?

Can you not understand that abortion could be considered an issue just like murder, prostitution, stealing, etc. Something that's wider than "just" religion. Open your mind man. Calling us religious zealots because we're anti-abortion is silly!!! I am not a religious zealot. It's freakin silly.

Sure, I think prostitution and drugs should be legal too.

What if we were discussing Murder. Like me murdering my neighbor across the street. If I were anti-murder, would you be calling me a religious zealot? Murder is VERY clearly a religious belief. What about stealing - another religious belief.

Murder & stealing violate social mores as well. If we were basing it on religion, not social mores we'd still be stuck on an eye for an eye an a toothe for a tooth, or turn the other cheek, whichever one it is.

The difference between you and me (I think) is that I believe I understand your point of view. Heck, at one time I probably held very similar point of view. However, You seem to miss mine (and those like me) completely - at least that's the conclusion I've come to based on your totally irrelevant arguments based on religious dogma.

I think I get your arguments. I think you're a decent human being, like my friend. But I don't want either one of you codifying religious beliefs.

- Skip

[skipdup]

Mule- Why is it, exactly, that abortion isn't also a moral question. If murder and stealing can be both, then why not abortion. This get to the basis of why I've been arguing what I've been arguing.

Or another... Do you call all anti-drug people and anti-prostitution people religious zealots? Is your main argument against drug-legalization people to bash them over the head with religious zelotism?

- Skip

[skipdup]

oh, and re: constitutional amendment... way to broad a question. But, as a rule, I'm against amending the constitution.

[svandamme]

Originally Posted by skipdup

Are you actually saying it's OK for you to determine when it's murder - but not OK for religious people to determine when it's murder?

Is it murder 10 minutes before natural birth?

So, no. Still don't get it. But, I am trying...

i'm saying that if anything, it's up to the person who is pregnant to determine anything...

i'm a guy, i don't consider it my right to impose my idea on her body.

till the kid pops out , it's her body, her moral's, her decision
good or bad, it's hers to make






personally , i there should be room for therapeutic abortion
and up to a certain point also for elective abortion as well

and no religious person has the right to impose a view that says there cannot ever be any abortion at all

i'm not going to debate the precise cutoff point for elective abortion, i'm single, without children, why should my opinion on that have any merit on that?

i'm simply debating the point that if i were a woman, and i came to the point where i had to make that choice, then i would want to make that choice myself, not have any bunch of folks who have nothing in common with me make it for me...

just like when it comes to Euthanasia, something that might at some point become a decision for me to make
well, if i ever have to make that decision, then it will be mine to make, no religious nut should ever have to even think twice about that, if i ever become terminally ill, fully paralyzed, then i should have the right to decide to end it, and if i ask for it, there should not be anybody bugging the MD who helps me out in that

[Mule]

Originally Posted by skipdup

Mule- Why is it, exactly, that abortion isn't also a moral question. If murder and stealing can be both, then why not abortion. This get to the basis of why I've been arguing what I've been arguing.

Because where a vast majority consider murder & stealing unacceptable, they could mostly care less about abortion.

Or another... Do you call all anti-drug people and anti-prostitution people religious zealots? Is your main argument against drug-legalization people to bash them over the head with religious zelotism?

- Skip

The problem with many religious people is that everything is black or white, no gray. Drugs bad, end of discussion. Prostitution bad, end of discussion. The ones I've manages to have civil discussions with on the subject end up very frustrated.

It all boils down to the old Thomas Jefferson statement. "Your right to swing your arm stops where my nose starts."

[Mule]

Originally Posted by svandamme

i'm a guy, i don't consider it my right to impose my idea on her body.

Holy mackrel, now Stijn & I agree. Being a guy, I'm thinking the chances of me needing an abortion are way way low. Therefore, I don't have a dog in this fight.

[BeyGon]

I believe in the right of the woman to choose, I would not vote for someone specifically because they are for or against abortion. It will be a long time before anything changes and the President isn't going to make the decision.

[trekkor]

Originally Posted by svandamme

religious folks consider it a murder from the second the sperm and the egg cell become one

and some people think that's not the case

the actual time when it becomes murder is debatable, and that's where the religious folks impose their view...

I'm trying to understand how anyone can debate that the sperm and egg joined at conception is anything but a new human life.

If it's not, then what is it?


KT

[Mule]

A zygote. and while we're on that subject folks, we need more dollars for zygote credits. Remember they are 100% guaranteed! Send payments to Mule c/o PPOT.

[trekkor]

Sorry, fella.

You will recieve no credits, and you will acknowledge your conscience.
( jedi hand wave )


KT

[Mule]

Obviously a non believer. You will have to answer to God!

[trekkor]

Every person started life as a "zygote".

Step back, deep breath, acknowledge.


KT

[svandamme]

Originally Posted by trekkor

I'm trying to understand how anyone can debate that the sperm and egg joined at conception is anything but a new human life.

If it's not, then what is it?


KT

it's one cell, no brain, no heart, no lungs, no capacity for thought, nada

if you believe that there's anything more then a blueprint to be found at that point in that 1 cell... then sure, go ahead, believe that

but don't force your belief on me

if you want you can copy past your diary here, start off from the exact second after the sperm and egg joined... but i seriously doubt you can remember anything... probably because you had no brain at that time, because you , weren't you yet


you should go into big style construction with that kind of thinking
company orders a sky scraper, deliverable in 8 monhts

and then at exactly 8 months, give em a blue print and go "here you go, it's your building"

[cool_chick]

Originally Posted by trekkor

Every person started life as a "zygote".

Step back, deep breath, acknowledge.


KT

No one disagrees. But they don't call a zygote a baby. Question had to do with the term "murder."

[svandamme]

Originally Posted by cool_chick

No one disagrees. But they don't call a zygote a baby. Question had to do with the term "murder."

that's the 11th commandment

thou shalt not kill zygotes!

[Mule]

Originally Posted by trekkor

Every person started life as a "zygote".

Step back, deep breath, acknowledge.


KT

Before you were a zygote, you were a desire to have sex. Where does this begin?

[Porsche-O-Phile]

The human race started as a bunch of monkeys too, but the "religious wrong" seem hell-bent on denying that too. Their egos can't handle it.

Instead they need to make up stories about how they're supposedly the direct handiwork of an all-powerful, all-knowing, perfect invisible guy living in the sky.

LOL!

Want to know for certain that man was not "made in god's image"? Look at a naked guy in the mirror. If a guy's hairy, pimply, lumpy body is the form of my deity and his/her/its embodiment of perfection, I'd just assume burn in hell. Thanks.

The female form on the other hand. . . Wow!!!