Wow, not nice churches you guys have in the USA

[skipdup]

20's generous.

[911Rob]

I love a PPOT Ali

[RoninLB]

[stuartj]

Originally Posted by 911Rob

I know John, I know.
The guys an alias poster, no name or location, etc.
99% of his posts are antagonizing & prodding for a debate; mostly anti-religious.
Witty dude, but lacks any kind of wisdom. My guess, he's about 20?

Like to find a thread where him and nostatic go at it? Ha, ha.

Bye, Bye Stu-

You are too kind again, Rob- but on this occassion I have to say quite wrong. Perhaps my acceptance of the fact that Im not going to live forever keeps me sounding young. My alias is my name. No imagination, you see. Its an atheist thing.

Yes, there has been a very engaging thread "is there a god" running for, gee, must be nearly a year here now, and Ive been an active particpant, so that explains the skew of my recent posts. You would certainly welcome to participate if you feel you can muster an argument. There is not many angry, delusional god botherers left. Most of them have disappeared up their fundamentalist orifices as their arguments have been dismantled and their beliefs shown to be just that -beliefs and nought more.

Look forward to your contribution.

Regards

[stuartj]

Originally Posted by dd74

Fascinating. I've been reading a lot of Aussie Contemporary Lit. lately. Mostly Coetzee and Carey, and it seems just as you say. No mention of religion - possibly because it's a foregone conclusion that religion is unimportant due to a new and fresh beginning in a new country. There is mention of God, but just conversationally. The melting pot aspect, however, is very heavily realized in the Aussie Literature, which to me suggests the parallels with the U.S.

If you are interested in this, and especially in the sense of how this contrasted to the settlement of the US- may I recommend to you "The Fatal Shore" by historian Robert Hughes. A quite compelling account of the brutality and squalor that went with establishing a British gulag in the South Pacific.

[dd74]

Very cool. Thanks, Stuart.

[Fishcop]

Originally Posted by RoninLB

My understanding of Australia is that its founders were tough individualists carving out a life in an unknown inhospitable land with little support from the outside. Religion was not a social political center. Survival needs of its founders formed the political centers.

Well that's got to be one of the best summings of Australia's political begining I've heard Ron. Entirely accurate. And I love "her" also

The first fleet left 600 odd soles to fend for themselves for nearly 18 months before assistance and supplies (and more convicts) made their way to what became Sydney. It's arguable that as 'convicts' in that era, they were not overly religious to begin with, and essentialy being marooned on a land they did not understand put god far from their minds...

It's hard to see such a sensational city as Sydney once being a sparse unhospitable shore.

Dave
+1 on "Fatal Shores" and if you're into a little military or WWII history, grab a book called "Kokoda" by Peter Fitzsimon. It gives a little insight into the kinds of pragmatic people that went on to truly build the Australia we're proud of today.

[dd74]

Thanks for the suggestion, John.

The only somewhat historical book I've read so far about Oz is "The True History of The Kelly Gang." Great stuff! You gotta' love Ned Kelly's suit or iron. Reminds me of some our outlaws in the Wild West days.

[WI wide body]

Originally Posted by RoninLB

American revolution was intellectualized by a religious scholar called Thomas Paine. The underground movement was spread around through the colonies by the local political centers called churches. The "drift" of these centers was fundamentalist in the north east. When the Scot-Irish migrated into the central east the "drift" was less radical. The openness of this group had less of a center core specific church doctrine and hosted over 100 different sects. When the Americas took over New Orleans religion was not a core political leader. The original people were from many varied backgrounds in social context. There is a background difference between churches in the US NE and the US SE. A crude non-truth example is that the use of wine in the NE had religious connotations and in New Orleans wine was a party waiting to happen. The overhang of all this still exists today.

My understanding of Australia is that its founders were tough individualists carving out a life in an unknown inhospitable land with little support from the outside. Religion was not a social political center. Survival needs of its founders formed the political centers.

Two points:

First, Paine was a "religious scholar" but not as most might guess. He was anti-organized religion...and I do mean ALL religions.

Second, when I was in Australia, many of the guys I met were quite proud of their convict heritage. In fact, it was an issue at the plant in Sydney just how true it might have been. Basically, the ones who thought that they had proof would sort of look down on those who could not. But they were great guys and a real blast to fo out with.

[stuartj]

Originally Posted by Fishcop

Well that's got to be one of the best summings of Australia's political begining I've heard Ron. Entirely accurate. And I love "her" also

The first fleet left 600 odd soles to fend for themselves for nearly 18 months before assistance and supplies (and more convicts) made their way to what became Sydney. It's arguable that as 'convicts' in that era, they were not overly religious to begin with, and essentialy being marooned on a land they did not understand put god far from their minds...

It's hard to see such a sensational city as Sydney once being a sparse unhospitable shore.

Dave
+1 on "Fatal Shores" and if you're into a little military or WWII history, grab a book called "Kokoda" by Peter Fitzsimon. It gives a little insight into the kinds of pragmatic people that went on to truly build the Australia we're proud of today.

Whats hard to imagine is how ship loads of Englishman managed to starve to death on the shores of a harbour teeming with Sydney Rock Oysters now worth $40 a dozen and served with a nice Sav Blanc on the shores of the same harbour. How the hell could you starve to death beside Sydney Harbour?

John- IMHO- you are a crossing from the sublime to the ridiculous. There is nothing special about the people that settled Australia. Either they survived transporation or they didnt. Fitzsimmons is a rugby player and while i dont doubt his passion for his subjects, he really produces populist pap that plays to, and perpetuates, bogus nationalist myths. And we see where that gets us. Just MO.

Widebody- that convict thing is partcularly prevalent in Sydney, less so elsewhere.

[DanielDudley]

Originally Posted by scottmandue

"The Westboro Baptist Church (WBC), a Kansas-based congregation known for its demonstrations outside funerals for US soldiers killed in Iraq, "

-Christian indeed, pardon me if I interrupt your Little hatefest-

" 39"But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

40"If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.

41"Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two.

42"Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

43"You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.'

44"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

45so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.





"34But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered themselves together.

35 One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him,

36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"

37 And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'

38 "This is the great and foremost commandment.

39 "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'

40 "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

Thanks, I needed that.

[DanielDudley]

Originally Posted by skipdup

Dude, this is one church with 71 to 150 members. I know you say "not normal...". But even so, one small group (of total whack jobs) in no way represents Christianity.

I can't imagine any Christian (and I know tons) that wouldn't be enraged by this kind of poison.

Just sayin...

- Skip

Enraged Christians.

Only in America.

Party on Dude.

[DanielDudley]

Originally Posted by skipdup

Wierd thing happened this morning. Woke up thinking about this thread - specifically about those crazy "church" members. Then I had a thought, what if these guys aren't really a "church", but the most hardcore of atheist in the world - on a mission to deliver a blow to Christianity. If you think about it, what better way to give "Christians" a bad name than to do what these people do, "in the name of God"?

I mean seriously, these guys are bizarre. They are polar opposite from every Christian I have ever known. Maybe, in fact, they are polar opposite???

- Skip

Nice fantasy.

[DanielDudley]

Originally Posted by skipdup

Up until this very small group, it was unheard of here too.

I still say it's a bunch of atheists...

No doubt the Spanish Inqusition was also started by athiests...\

Many are sincere about their beliefs, but not all beliefs are sincere.

Some religions believe it takes many lifetimes of experience to become a master soul. Some believe in doing it by the book. I'm not much of a fan of the saved, but I believe in following the best example. I expect you do as well.

[WI wide body]

[

Widebody- that convict thing is partcularly prevalent in Sydney, less so elsewhere.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, that might be true. I had one other trip to "Auzzieland" and I don't recall hearing it in Melbourne.

But man, did they ever have a ton of great, small, authentic Italian (yes Italian) restaurants in Melbourne!

[WI wide body]

Stuart, are you familiar with the Kings Cross area of Sydney?

That was one wild trip back when I was there. Upscale fashion area in the daytime...unlimited and seemingly unrestricted wild house district after dark!

I think that those crazy Auzzie's put me up in that hotel just to get my reaction.

[Fishcop]

Originally Posted by stuartj

John- IMHO- you are a crossing from the sublime to the ridiculous. There is nothing special about the people that settled Australia. Either they survived transporation or they didnt. Fitzsimmons is a rugby player and while i dont doubt his passion for his subjects, he really produces populist pap that plays to, and perpetuates, bogus nationalist myths. And we see where that gets us. Just MO.

Perhaps But I was lucky enough to remember my great grandfather, and I still have my grandfather (38 years working on Sydney Harbour with MSB), both of whom served in the wars. Their stories do not paint pretty pictures, but for me, I'm of the belief we won't see the likes of those people ever again - grit, gumption and belief in mates. I think it makes them special.

Okay, getting a touch sentimental... back to them crazy churches

[stuartj]

Originally Posted by Fishcop

Perhaps But I was lucky enough to remember my great grandfather, and I still have my grandfather (38 years working on Sydney Harbour with MSB), both of whom served in the wars. Their stories do not paint pretty pictures, but for me, I'm of the belief we won't see the likes of those people ever again - grit, gumption and belief in mates. I think it makes them special.

Okay, getting a touch sentimental... back to them crazy churches

John.
We all have connections- everyone in the world has connections. There is nothing unique, despite the insistance that this is so. But I have stood on Poziere, more precisley at Moquet farm, in the sleeting, freezing rain and ....I dunno. Its a conversation best had lubricated.

But they went there as Englishmen and Irishmen. There is nothing inherently different or resilient about these people. They did what you would do in the same situation. This tendency there is toward nationalsitic bluster, largely and recently imported ....is unattractive. What happens at the Turkish beach each April has become an emabarrassment.

[stuartj]

Originally Posted by WI wide body

Stuart, are you familiar with the Kings Cross area of Sydney?

That was one wild trip back when I was there. Upscale fashion area in the daytime...unlimited and seemingly unrestricted wild house district after dark!

I think that those crazy Auzzie's put me up in that hotel just to get my reaction.

I had the same experience in Bourbon St. That cyclone had me thinking maybe there was a god, till I found out Bourbon St was intact.

Give the Cross a wide berth.

[kstar]

Originally Posted by stuartj

I had the same expereicne in Bourbon St. that cyclone had me thinking maybe there was a god, till I found out it was intact.

Give the Cross a wide berth.

Stuart:

Speaking of Bourbon St. and crazy churches, here is a picture of some atheists subverting the good name of Christianity there:



I hope you have been reading your Guide, drinking your Tea and caring for the faeries at the bottom of your garden.

Best,

Kurt