Permit?

[Hugh R]

I was told that my bathroom "refurbishment" might require a Permit. So I got to thinking, a Permit implies "Permission" as in someone will let you, or allow, you to do something. I understand the concept of building codes and all that, which is why when they have a 6.0 shaker in New Delhi all the mud skyscrapers fall down. But it kind of irks me that I need a permit or "permission" to do something to my house, on my property. Ya,Ya I also understand the no-permit resale issue as well. What prompted me to think further about this was that Donald Trump doesn't want to pay a $10,000 permit fee for a flag pole that he put up at his Palos Verdes Estates, CA golf course.

[911Rob]

I wouldn't worry about the permit so much; however if you are using a professional tradesman for the plumbing and electrical work, that is a different story. These people are legistlated to take out permits and not doing so can cost them their licenses.

Insurance companies love to look for un-permitted work in the case of a claim too. You think you have insurance and then no......., so you should consider the impact there. Of course bathrooms are the worst because they involve every trade.

Call your local authority and question them about taking out a permit for a small, interior home reno? They usually have a dollar amount fixed to the permit requirement. So they might say anything over $2000 requires a permit. Then just make sure you keep the jobs under $2000.

$2000 this day, then $2000 that day, and so on. I hate permits too, never took them out for any of my home projects. FWIW

Good Luck Hugh,

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Residential interior remodels that do not involve structural work typically can be done unpermitted, but check the local codes for your town/city. I have heard of exceptions to this. Some municipalities are worse than others. I've PERSONALLY seen two different cities in soCal require sprinklers in wood-framed residential construction and a full city council approval to paint a house. That's the state of things today. It would be unusual (but wouldn't surprise me) to hear of a city requiring a permit for the kind of work you're describing. ASK the question and DOCUMENT the answer (person you spoke to, date, time, etc.)

Don't do the work unpermitted if it's required. Anyone advising you to do so doesn't know what they're talking about and can get you in a lot of legal hot water. Do the stuff "above board" or don't do it at all.

Like you, I completely agree that it's ridiculous, but again - this is what happens when you live in a "big government" society where the bureaucrats have limitless resources and power.

[daepp]

My guess is that this doesn't apply since you're on a private drive, but around here the company with the garbage contract informs Code Enforcement when they see building materials set out for pick up. My neighbor got popped that way.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

Residential interior remodels that do not involve structural work typically can be done unpermitted, but check the local codes for your town/city. I have heard of exceptions to this. Some municipalities are worse than others. I've PERSONALLY seen two different cities in soCal require sprinklers in wood-framed residential construction and a full city council approval to paint a house. That's the state of things today. It would be unusual (but wouldn't surprise me) to hear of a city requiring a permit for the kind of work you're describing. ASK the question and DOCUMENT the answer (person you spoke to, date, time, etc.)

Don't do the work unpermitted if it's required. Anyone advising you to do so doesn't know what they're talking about and can get you in a lot of legal hot water. Do the stuff "above board" or don't do it at all.

Like you, I completely agree that it's ridiculous, but again - this is what happens when you live in a "big government" society where the bureaucrats have limitless resources and power.

The permit process serves several functions, one of which is to increase your property taxes, ie more revenue for the town.

Having said that I suggest doing it legal. Went through this with a house I just sold. Was a new build when I bought it 12 years ago, the builder did not disclose the bedrooms/bathrooms on the second floor, he called it attic space and put them in after the final town signoff. I had trouble selling it due to lack of permits.

Closed on the house end of december. Permits still in process. Buyer still has 10k of my cash in escrow. Whole thing has me out of pocket for nearly 20k. (10k after i get escrow back)

What a friggin headache.

[MRM]

I make a very good living in construction litigation because of idiots who build things that don't meet code. Much of this was made possible because the construction permit process in the 80s and 90s was pretty lax. At least in Minnesota and Wisconsin it's much more rigorous. Cities could have saved their residents millions of dollars by being even minimally vigilant ten years ago.

With a permit goes some oversight to make sure the work is done to code and with a licensed contractor or tradesman. It also ensures your neighbors (and when they do their house, it ensures you) that there won't be some broken down eyesore devaluing their property. It's a pain in the rear, it's an impingement on your individual rights and liberties, and it's a good thing in the long run for everyone.

[berettafan]

Originally Posted by MRM

I make a very good living in construction litigation because of idiots who build things that don't meet code. Much of this was made possible because the construction permit process in the 80s and 90s was pretty lax. At least in Minnesota and Wisconsin it's much more rigorous. Cities could have saved their residents millions of dollars by being even minimally vigilant ten years ago.

With a permit goes some oversight to make sure the work is done to code and with a licensed contractor or tradesman. It also ensures your neighbors (and when they do their house, it ensures you) that there won't be some broken down eyesore devaluing their property. It's a pain in the rear, it's an impingement on your individual rights and liberties, and it's a good thing in the long run for everyone.

Bingo!

[LakeCleElum]

I really hate permits, but ya kinda got to to it. Like Stomach sez, it will really bite you when you sell the house if you don't do it. I'm just finishing building a house and did a lot of the work myself. I just had to pay a $900 permit renewal fee as it had been a year since they were last out. I screamed, yelled and wrote letters, but in the end, I had to pay it....

What's interesting, I have relatives in the building trade in the mid-west. To this day, you need no permit at all to build your own home in many counties in ILL or Missouri; I'm sure many other states as well.....

[The Gaijin]

Were I grew up the nice side of town gets the inspectors with their nose out of joint. A bundle of 2x4s dropped off and no permit (yet) in place and you get a ticket.

The other side of town - 50 illegals in one house and nobody gives a damn..

[onewhippedpuppy]

If it's a DIY remodel, especially inside, you don't need a permit. Legally, maybe, but if it's not a major alteration I don't see why it matters. Just another way to raise your taxes and complicate your life.

[notfarnow]

Around here, getting a building permit pretty much guarantees that your house will be reassessed for taxes. It's happenned to be twice... once for some interior work, and then again when I built my fence.

At one point, they told me I technically need to get a permit to lay new hardwood floors. I asked them to show me where it says that, but they couldn't... so I didn't.

[URY914]

We have Building Inspectors driving around on Saturdays here. They see you putting up a fence or mixing concrete they will stop. In the end it's a good thing.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

If it's a DIY remodel, especially inside, you don't need a permit. Legally, maybe, but if it's not a major alteration I don't see why it matters. Just another way to raise your taxes and complicate your life.

It matters because some banks will not write a mortgage if all CO's are not in place.

In my case the town had no issue with giving me "cure" permits. They just charged 300% of what it would have cost if they were applied for BEFORE the work was done.

As far as the property tax savings. In my case over 12 years I what I saved was less than what it cost to fix which was a one time hit. Add in the aggravation and it was not worth it.

It's why I'm currently suing the builder AND my attorney who did my deal. The builder was unethical and the attorney completely missed it. She had three pages of riders re stuff that needed to be finished including stuff in the upstairs bathrooms/bedrooms but never checked the final CO's to see if everything lined up. I almost let it slide but when I spoke to her about it she said "oh well, sorry about that but I don't see how it's my problem"

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

It matters because some banks will not write a mortgage if all CO's are not in place.

In my case the town had no issue with giving me "cure" permits. They just charged 300% of what it would have cost if they were applied for BEFORE the work was done.

As far as the property tax savings. In my case over 12 years I what I saved was less than what it cost to fix which was a one time hit. Add in the aggravation and it was not worth it.

It's why I'm currently suing the builder AND my attorney who did my deal. The builder was unethical and the attorney completely missed it. She had three pages of riders re stuff that needed to be finished including stuff in the upstairs bathrooms/bedrooms but never checked the final CO's to see if everything lined up. I almost let it slide but when I spoke to her about it she said "oh well, sorry about that but I don't see how it's my problem"

It's a bit different though, because you're talking about an entire house, and you're dealing with contractors. In your case, they were required to follow a process and did not. You have far more latitude on your own house, doing your own work.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

To restate and expand a little bit on what's been said, check FIRST. Either call the city yourself, go down there and ask them over the counter or have an architect or construction manager (owner's rep) go down there and do it for you. On a small job like this, it's probably easier to just go down and ask the questions yourself. DO NOT have a contractor do it for you and simply take their word for it, ESPECIALLY one that is not licensed, bonded and well-established with a very long history and stellar reputation (and those are rare in residential work). Although most GCs are honest, there are many (particularly in residential) that will tell you what you want to hear, bang the work out (unpermitted), charge you for it and leave you to deal with the legal ramifications when they eventually catch up with you - and they will. By the time they do, the contractor may be long gone or be in business elsewhere under another name. I've seen this game before several times. Unfortunately you have to be careful to protect yourself from the sleazeballs. Most are great guys, but there is a percentage you need to really watch out for.

Trust, but verify.

Most contractors are good and will tell you the "correct" information but some will not just to get your money. Unfortunately a lot of residential owners simply look for cheapest solution, and that attracts the fly-by-nighters like moths to a flame. Joe Homeowner only hears "yea, you don't need no permit - we can be done in two weeks", with a lowball price tag. Guess who gets handed the mountain of red tape, fines, fees and inspection costs later? Not the contractor, that's for sure. And your likelihood of finding them and getting a settlement against them is virtually zero.

[911Rob]

maybe you missed Hughs post in the other thread?

He's redoing a shower stall with tile. Not adding a second storey.

Jeesh

[onewhippedpuppy]

Someone clarify this for me, if you do work on your own house without a permit, when does it catch up with you? The only thing I can see is wanting to have your house reassesed to raise your appraised value prior to a sale. If there have been major changes prior to your last appraisal, they'll ask about permits. Otherwise, when will it matter?

Furthermore, short of actually adding square footage, how would they know the difference? The big stuff would be obvious, but how would they know if you remodeled a bathroom? Our property taxes are based on basic information such as finished square footage, bedrooms, basement, etc. Short of big stuff like that, they'd never know the difference.

[911Rob]

Matt,
one place:
When you go to sell, you will have to sign a property disclosure statement asking you about renovations. In Canada, they only ask about the last 6 months in one question and then there's the question about 'are you aware of any work being completed without a permit'?

If you lie on this form, you can be sued.

The electrician and plumber will most definately take out their permits, which is commonly enough for this type of SMALL renovation. I usually do my own work though and there's no way I could get a permit for that.

Painting, carpets, cabinets and cosmetic items do not require a permit, here.



fyi

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Someone clarify this for me, if you do work on your own house without a permit, when does it catch up with you? The only thing I can see is wanting to have your house reassesed to raise your appraised value prior to a sale. If there have been major changes prior to your last appraisal, they'll ask about permits. Otherwise, when will it matter?

Furthermore, short of actually adding square footage, how would they know the difference? The big stuff would be obvious, but how would they know if you remodeled a bathroom? Our property taxes are based on basic information such as finished square footage, bedrooms, basement, etc. Short of big stuff like that, they'd never know the difference.

May depend on geography but in NY,

1) Bank sends appraiser to review property and structure.
2) Land Survey, footprint of existing structure must match survey on file.
3) Interior is checked against CO's on file as well as tax card.

Remodeling a bathroom is not an issue, adding one is. Requires at least plumbing permit, habitable space permit, electrical permit and depending on where it is in the house possibly a structural permit.

You need a habitable space permit if you convert part of your "attic" to a bedroom.

Some banks care, others do not. The ones that do, if they see a mismatch they don't lend.

[MRM]

Matt, all that depends on the local municipality. If you're in the country there might be no permit requirement. In other places the license/permit can apply to a wide range of things. Usually a homeowner doing something cosmetic like retiling a bathroom wouldn't need a permit; some places require permits when the cost of materials exceeds a certain amount. If the tradesman in Hugh's case needs to do something with the plumbing, even if it's small, he might have to pull a plumbing permit.

As Jeff said, just check into it yourself and take notes on who you talk to. It sounds worse than it really is.