Do we need change?

[Mule]

O is against all of that.

[dipso]

Originally Posted by Mule

O is against all of that.

Now, how do you know that? And don't say Hannity.

It says "Obama for change/ official website". I know someone could be lying, but it is a start to get to the truth.
Can somebody use the term "official website", if it is not approved? I don't know.

http://www.obamaforchange.com/issues.html

[bivenator]

Do you really think that the prez of mexico will agree to send a barrel of oil for each illegal? Is the website a spoof? Kinoki pads have a better chance of working than solution.

[Mule]

Obama is explicitly against drilling. He's said so. Remember, all we need to do id air up the tires! "Comprehensive" immigration reform = amnesty. He voted that way. Obama has already told up of enough of his change. No thanks. Nobama!

[Por_sha911]

Originally Posted by nostatic

you submitted the article "without comment." It was pretty clear to some of us what the original author's point was....

I think that the clarity of the point inflamed those that are too defensive of one candidate. I read in this thread people saying "how do you know what he stands for?" Look at his voting record. I don't see many folks discussing where he stands, only how much better it will be to not have Bush (or a Republican) in the big house. That my friend is emotion and not logic (present company excluded of course).

Originally Posted by nostatic

Maybe I should make jokes about Kennedy's alcohol problems instead...

OK, guilty as charged. I am mad at myself for diminishing the value of the discussion with crass humor.

[dipso]

Originally Posted by Mule

Obama is explicitly against drilling. He's said so. Remember, all we need to do id air up the tires! "Comprehensive" immigration reform = amnesty. He voted that way. Obama has already told up of enough of his change. No thanks. Nobama!

No he is not.
He is opposed to drilling offshore and in protected areas. He is not opposed to drilling entirely. The oil companies must first "exhaust other remedies," including drilling onshore in the 68 million acres already open to exploration and drilling.

In the mean time while the U.S. explores and uses the current 68 million acres, he would like to start to transition to hybrid, ethanol, solar, electric and other sources of energy.

We will always need oil, there a lot of products that oil is used in. We could just lesson the load with alternative sources of energy. There are plenty of them out there.

Makes sense.

You Republicans are very selfish, you want to use all the oil now and make your kids deal with the transition. You want to borrow all the money now and make your kids deal with the payments. I don't even like kids and can see that is a bad strategy.

Oil will one day go the way of the kerosene lamp,
don't resist mule, don't resist mule, don't resist mule. you are getting sleeeeepy.

[tobster1911]

Originally Posted by dipso

Oil will one day go the way of the kerosene lamp...

Did we run out of Kerosene? Really?

You make our point exactly. The stone age did not end when we ran out of stones. Conservatives are all for alternative energy... when it becomes profitable. (not artificially at that).

[dipso]

Originally Posted by tobster1911

Did we run out of Kerosene? Really?

You make our point exactly. The stone age did not end when we ran out of stones. Conservatives are all for alternative energy... when it becomes profitable. (not artificially at that).

Of course we didn't run out of kerosene. What I meant, Is that it will last longer now that there are other ways to light a lamp.

Stones were used as tools, and worn down in the process. Nothing lasts forever. Imagine how long it takes the earth to make more stones.
Then the bronze age came along and luckily for us we still have stones. I like stones. I have them as steps in my garden.

The oil companies are making record profits right now, they can drill in the 68 million acres they already have.
Tough.
You know, I could make a lot more money if I skirted laws in my business, but I don't. That's just the way it is. I don't feel bad for them.

Greedy, wasteful, selfish, lazy, short-sighted, people.

[Jagshund]

Wow. You guys are actually arguing politics and no one's resorted to name-calling. How long can this last???

[dipso]

Originally Posted by 1968Cayman

Wow. You guys are actually arguing politics and no one's resorted to name-calling. How long can this last???

Shut up, Stupid!

[dtw]

Originally Posted by nostatic

Shaun, you aren't getting the memos. As near as I can figure, the trail is something like this:

He's a closet Muslim, and will turn the US into a Muslim country
He's the next Hitler, since he is a charismatic speaker and forceful leader
He's the next Castro (see above)
He's actually a weak puppet for Reid/Pelosi

Maybe next he'll be gay or possibly trans-gender. Not that there's anything wrong with that...

Actually it goes:
-Most liberal voting record in the Senate
-Lock-step with party line
-*poof* go 15% capital gains taxes
-Zero demonstrable experience doing...anything of any relevance. Funny how democrats were shouting this about B2 for 8 years, yet are now strangely silent about Barry O on the same issue. Hell, failing a company is still great experience - what's BHO done?

But I digress. Those are the real issues in the real live humans that I talk to - everything else is apparently sound bites for talk radio, TV, and PPOT.

[tobster1911]

Originally Posted by dipso

Of course we didn't run out of kerosene. What I meant, Is that it will last longer now that there are other ways to light a lamp.

Yes, you now light that lamp with OIL!!!! (or coal).

Stones were used as tools, and worn down in the process. Nothing lasts forever. Imagine how long it takes the earth to make more stones.
Then the bronze age came along and luckily for us we still have stones. I like stones. I have them as steps in my garden.

I prefer to use up the stones and let my grand kids deal with the problem later.

I am a firm believer that PROGRESS is what works not artificially forced change due to some shrill rhetoric.

The oil companies are making record profits right now, they can drill in the 68 million acres they already have.
Tough.

Greedy, wasteful, selfish, lazy people.

Back to the good old worn out "They are making too much (more than me) money". Good luck with that...

[tobster1911]

Originally Posted by dipso

You know, I could make a lot more money if I skirted laws in my business, but I don't. That's just the way it is. I don't feel bad for them.

Greedy, wasteful, selfish, lazy, short-sighted, people.

You edited.

I need some facts for that statement. Oil Co's are in the biggest spotlight right now. I am sure that if there was any dirt it would be the biggest dust storm of the new millennium.

[dipso]

Originally Posted by tobster1911

You edited.

I need some facts for that statement. Oil Co's are in the biggest spotlight right now. I am sure that if there was any dirt it would be the biggest dust storm of the new millennium.

I didn't say they are skirting laws. I am saying they want to change the laws to make it easier for them.

They can't drill in protected areas. They want to.
Too bad. They can't even refine the stuff they have right now.

There should be a law, after a certain amount of producing wells, you have to build one refinery.

[dipso]

Originally Posted by tobster1911

Yes, you now light that lamp with OIL!!!! (or coal).
Or use a newer technology called electricity, powered by hydro electric dams or the sun or the wind

I prefer to use up the stones and let my grand kids deal with the problem later.

I am a firm believer that PROGRESS is what works not artificially forced change due to some shrill rhetoric.
The problem has arrived, sorry the messenger speaks eloquently


Back to the good old worn out "They are making too much (more than me) money". Good luck with that...

I don't care how much money they make, you are supposed to make money in a business. They just might have to work a little harder. I am sure drilling in their existing acreage is not as easy as drilling offshore, but that's the business they are in. If they don't want to, I am sure somebody else will.

[Hugh R]

This country and the rest of the world needs to go to nuclear. Its plain and simple. Nuclear waste disposal is not a technical issue, it's a political issue. There are areas of Nevada where we did nuclear testing (Atom bombs) in the 50's and 60's that we will be guarding for centuries. Places that are already very hot. Why not store it there? Besides Yucca Mtn. Where should you put nuclear waste? How about in a place where you've already contaminated? Yucca Mtn. and the WIPP, the waste isolation pilot project in Carlsbad, NM have been geological stable for about a million years, yet the anti-nuke people say that isn't good enough.

[dd74]

Originally Posted by dipso

How true. This is how Mc.Cain is,,,, "perspected".

Ah, man! This cracked me up!

So enough of the empty debates. What's it going to be in November? President Obama or President McCain? Or President Bob Barr? http://www.bobbarr2008.com/

[Nathans_Dad]

Originally Posted by dipso

Issues Facing Our Nation
Most Americans realize the problems facing our nation and the world today. With this realization comes despair. But out of despair, we have hope....and that hope is change.
What are the answers to the issues we face today?
Immigration:
This is the greatest nation on earth, and affords its citizen an unblocked path to greatness, should they so choose. But, our borders are flooded with illegal aliens from almost all nations on this earth, with by the far the greatest number flooding over from Mexico. The Pew Hispanic Center used Census Bureau data to estimate that the United States had 11.1 million illegal immigrants in March 2005. The center used monthly population estimates to project a current total of 11.5 million to 12 million. Some say that in reality, this true number of illegals is double.
The answer? You hear "We need comprehensive immigration reform". We already have this...it's called the law. It is illegal to enter this country without the proper documentation. If you're here illegally, you MUST be deported. We have proper channels to become a citizen in this country. What we really need to offset the costs of housing, feeding, teaching, and healing illegals, mostly from Mexico, is for Vicente Fox to send us 1 barrel of oil for every illegal in this country. That would mean 12 to 20 million barrels a month to offset the costs we incur on our great nation.

Fuel Prices
Why do I pay $4+ dollars for a gallon of gas?
It's no mystery why we pay so much for gas at the pump. Along with everything else in this great country, we import oil instead of producing some of it domestically. We don't control the supply, so we don't control the prices. We need to drill domestically. We can do this in an environmentally sound manner. Our methods of oil discovery and extraction are more advanced today than they were in the last several decades. Did you know you pay almost 60 cents in taxes for every gallon of gas? I suggest we have a stay on taxes at the pump. This would be a real stimulus package.

National Health Care
Is a national health care plan the answer? Absolutely not! If you've had the unfortunate circumstance of visiting your local branch of the Department of Motor Vehicles you'll understand why our government needs to stay as far away from our health as possible. Look at other countries that have national health coverage. You'll find enormous waiting periods to get treated, with most of their citizens traveling to our great nation to get the health coverage they need. We must support torte reform. Without frivolous lawsuit, malpractice insurance rates will drop, and health care costs will follow. Without excessive illegals sapping our health care system, our hospitals will stay in business, and continue to provide the best health care in the world.

Please provide evidence that Obama actually supports any of this stuff.

Never mind, I'll do it for you. From Obama's own website:

Immigration:

"Barack Obama's Plan
Obama wants to preserve the integrity of our borders. He supports additional personnel, infrastructure and technology on the border and at our ports of entry.
Obama believes we must fix the dysfunctional immigration bureaucracy and increase the number of legal immigrants to keep families together and meet the demand for jobs that employers cannot fill.
Obama will remove incentives to enter the country illegally by cracking down on employers who hire undocumented immigrants.
Obama supports a system that allows undocumented immigrants who are in good standing to pay a fine, learn English, and go to the back of the line for the opportunity to become citizens.
Obama believes we need to do more to promote economic development in Mexico to decrease illegal immigration."

That's wierd. There's nothing in there about getting Mexico to give us a barrel of oil per day for each illegal. Hrm, must be a glitch, let's try another.

Fuel Prices:

"Barack Obama’s Plan
Provide a Tax Cut for Working Families: Barack Obama has called on the President to enact a second round of economic stimulus to immediately put tax rebates in the pockets of American families to pay for rising energy prices. As president, Obama will enact a tax fairness agenda that provides 150 million workers a “Making Work Pay” tax credit of $500 per person or $1,000 per working family.
* Fully Close the “Enron Loophole”. One of the reasons our energy market is particularly vulnerable to excessive speculation is the so-called “Enron Loophole” which prevents the Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) from fully overseeing the oil futures market. As president, Barack Obama will fully close the Enron loophole by requiring that U.S. energy futures trade on regulated exchange to crack down on any excessive speculation in the energy market.
* Ensure That U.S. Energy Futures Cannot be Traded on Unregulated Offshore Exchanges. Barack Obama will limit the price impacts of excessive speculation by preventing traders of U.S. crude oil from routing their transactions through off-shore markets in order to evade speculation limits and also impose reporting requirements.
* Work with Other Countries to Coordinate Regulation of Oil Futures Markets. Barack Obama believes we must work with our other countries to establish uniform approaches to avoiding excessive speculation in commodities futures markets. This effort will help ensure that as the U.S. strengthens oversight and transparency in U.S. exchanges, these efforts are not undermined by overseas trading subject to lax regulations.
Barack Obama does not believe we cannot afford to wait weeks and months more to vigorously investigate whether energy traders and oil companies manipulating the market at the expense of consumers. He is calling on the FTC to immediately expedite its investigation into market manipulation, including in the oil futures markets.
The oil industry has profited greatly—over $150 billion in 2007—due to global instability fueled by conflict in Iraq, failing domestic fiscal policies that have weakened the U.S. dollar and skyrocketing global demand resulting from a lack of investment in alternatives. Barack Obama supports imposing a windfall profits penalty on oil selling at or over $80 per barrel. Revenue from the proposal will be invested in a number of measures to reduce the burden of rising prices on families.
The 68 million acres of stockpiled leases have the potential to produce an additional 4.8 million barrels of oil each day. This would nearly double total U.S. oil production. The Obama plan would force oil and gas companies to either produce or pay a fee on unused federal onshore and offshore leases they are stockpiling.
Obama has called for repealing the oil and gas industry tax breaks that President Bush himself has said himself are unnecessary given today’s strong market incentive for expanding exploration and production.
Cooperate with Oil Importing Nations to Reduce Demand: As new large oil importing nations come on the market, the United States is at the mercy of an ever more volatile oil market. Obama believes we should use existing organizations, like NATO, to make energy security a shared global goal. We should take steps to engage the largest new consumers, China and India, including by inviting them to join the International Energy Agency."

Dammit, foiled again!! There's nothing in there about repealing the Federal gas tax. In fact, Obama wants to RAISE taxes on oil companies. Well, at least we know that won't make the price at the pump go up.

Healthcare:

"Quality, Affordable and Portable Coverage for All
Obama will make available a new national health plan to all Americans, including the self-employed and small businesses, to buy affordable health coverage that is similar to the plan available to members of Congress. The Obama plan will have the following features:
1. Guaranteed eligibility. No American will be turned away from any insurance plan because of illness or pre-existing conditions.
2. Comprehensive benefits. The benefit package will be similar to that offered through Federal Employees Health Benefits Program (FEHBP), the plan members of Congress have. The plan will cover all essential medical services, including preventive, maternity and mental health care.
3. Affordable premiums, co-pays and deductibles.
4. Subsidies. Individuals and families who do not qualify for Medicaid or SCHIP but still need financial assistance will receive an income-related federal subsidy to buy into the new public plan or purchase a private health care plan.
5. Simplified paperwork and reined in health costs.
6. Easy enrollment. The new public plan will be simple to enroll in and provide ready access to coverage.
7. Portability and choice. Participants in the new public plan and the National Health Insurance Exchange (see below) will be able to move from job to job without changing or jeopardizing their health care coverage.
8. Quality and efficiency. Participating insurance companies in the new public program will be required to report data to ensure that standards for quality, health information technology and administration are being met."

Strike three!! Obama is FOR a national healthcare plan. He specifically plans to put in a government run healthcare plan and expand Medicaid and SCHIP.

So, Dipso, what have we learned here? First, that someone is making Obama T-shirts and selling them off that Obama for change site. Second, that that person is obviously a conservative. Third, that Obama's positions are actually 180 degrees from what is stated on that site and fourth, that you have no edited-language removed, Z-man clue what the candidate that you support actually plans to do.

[the]

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

there are 2 kinds of voters in this country. ones who look at the last 8 years and like what they see. they are for:

corporate socialism at the expense of the middle class



etc.

and those that want more for America.

I thought you wrote "There are 2 voters in this country who look at the last 8 years and like what they see."

And I was thinking, yeah, that's about the right number.

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

Y
You callin' that T. Boones guy stupid? and it's not yer money, it's? his that will pay for the farms. I guess if Republicans could set-up a speculation scheme on pricing the wind, you'd be aaaaaaalllllllllll for wind farms though, wouldn't ya. Obama is for nuclear.

Yes I am calling T Boone stupid. Wind is the wrong type of power to replace the Natural Gas fired power generation equipment. TB wants the subsidies extended so that it continues to make business sense. Take away the subsidies, and it falls on its face.

And Show me where Obama is for Nuclear power. He was in a campaign stop and said that nuclear isn't ready. He thinks that scientists and engineers need to work on it some more. He is not Pro-Nuclear. He talked in the debates about nuclear, but when you listen closely, he has no plans to help change the regulations which have been crippling the industry.