I love armchair arguments - If it were me driving in those conditions and at those speeds I'd .............................
a) probably have had a heart attack!
b) need a clean pair of undies
c) be immitating a tourettes sufferer
d) all of the above

I think the issue the stewards have is the interpretation of 'immediately' which to me means straight away = don't even touch the throttle till the advantage is redressed. the rule does not say 'within 100 meters' or 'by the next corner' or 'within 5 seconds' - it is a clear statement of immediate action required. The timing or positioning of the corrective action should not be in the control of the offender to determine in such a way as to minimise the impact of his corrective action.

It's pretty clear to me that Hamilton knew he needed to redress the situation - he even spoke about it at the press session after. The reason why he cut the corner (too fast or forced off depending on your view) is irrelevant when dealing with the issue of advantage by cutting the corner and the making it good which should immediately follow.

Silly thing is that if he had not retaken the lead at the next corner but done so say at the one after that it probably would not even be an issue.

Tim

Nah, the FIA would have claimed that Hamilton's car had some sort of tractor beam on it that forced Raikkonen into the wall.

Fkin FIA. Bah.

Watched it serveral times on Tivo...I'd have to agree.

Race was FIXED. Ferrari is getting the championship no matter what. The script has already been written.:mad:

Hamilton raced like a champ and although he did not back off much, he did end up behind Rakinnen for a quick moment which qualifies for "not gaining a position."

It has become a real joke. I was almost going to go to Shanghai for the race, but switched it tonight to Beijing.

This crap really makes me mad.

Here is the clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8w1FtUpmh54

Kimi only protected his position, and he did not put his left wheel in the side of Lewis's sidepods... you can clearly see that in the video, any contact if there was any, was Lewis steering in...

the TV camera's don't show a good angle of that chicane, you can't drive side by side in it
it's a tight chicane, so Kimi was in the best position, and he had the advantage...
it was a stupid move to try and over take on the outside like Lewis did

here's a better angle...
http://www.spa-francorchamps.be/gfx/plan.jpg

the smart move would have been to overtake at Malmedy, it's the best opportunity for overtaking when one has massive top speed advantage, like Lewis had coming up to hte chicane...

Its amazing to read how some people react to this..

LH took a real hard line at the bus stop.. one that relied totally on the driver on the racing line giving up position (i.e the racing line) to make it stick. The other driver, if on the racing line, has no obligation to yield or move over (as this has priority over the reg. that states drivers side by side need to give each other room)...

So LH was the one who had to take avoiding action. In doing so he cut the corner, in itself no biggie, even if he did gain a place.

But the regs then go on to define how to 'return' the place.
Look at the footage from that corner and time/ measure how long it takes for the place to be 'returned'...

Now I wasn't there but from that footage one could imagine that LH, in his focus to win (its the one goal here) made sure that he yielded the place when and where it suited him, rather than following the stated rule. Again in this situation he thought he had done the right thing, as did McLaren and Charlie W.

However the FIA has the stewards there to take a 'second' look at issues.

Now the result in this situation is not good; either it was the right driver in the wrong car or the wrong driver in the right car who won. The modified result, to me, gives the wrong team the win with the wrong driver.

But....the rules are there and either need changing (as clearly they do because HK's penalty was pathetic)....or they need to be applied equally and fairly. This will not change until there are fundamental changes in the FIA hierarchy and a change in the relationship between the FIA and the commercial rights holder....

Interesting - the statement from McLaren says that LH lifted off and was 6km/h slower than the Ferrari. That's hardly going to meet the 'immediate' requirment - that's more like "I'll slow down just enough to let him past by the time we get to the next corner"

Couldn't agree more - even after he served the drive through he was still in front of the car he had taken out (Webber) with a spectacular show of poor driving/sportsmanship. How does that 'put right' a obvious advantage gained as a result of an infingement. With three stops and the spin as a result of HK's action Webber still came 8th.

Just finished watching the race. I could call it either way, but the fact is that LH did let KR back in front. The only question is whether he did it "fast enough." LH did gain an advantage by using the run-off in poor traction conditions, but did then yield the track position. So to me it is roughly a wash, and my bias would be to say, "let them race."

Declaring winners without the drivers in the car is pretty much BS unless there is a *clear* infraction. This one is too slim to take someone off the podium. It's racing, not a courtroom...

LH let KR by fair and square, then the iceman turned into jelloman by the next turn.

I really think the pressure is beginning to mount for Kimi with Massa kicking his a$$ this season.
You can only rest on your laurels for so long, at some point you need to back them up and running off into a wall under pressure aint one of them.

Kimi needs to bring his "A Game" to Monza!

'Fair and square'.... hmm.. must have been watching a different race.

I think LH, as ever made an error of judgement in his retaking the place. On catching KR it was clear the Mac was able to go faster than the Ferrair in those conditions...and so he should have been able to take KR at other points on the track...or perhaps he wasn't as confident of that as we think judging by his using the full run off area at Eau Rouge.

The reality is that LH, being a very competitive racer did not follow the rules as they are at present...regardless of how stupid. Additional definition is not needed...the rules require to not be a race pace from the moment you go off until the place you have gained is 'returned'.

Do you think KR would have taken some long (time and distance) to overtake LH had LH not been going as quickly as was possible in the conditions?. Sure he let off to allow KR past, tucked neatly under hs wing and positioned himself to his best advantage to overtake. Had he not done that he would have had to use Eau Rouge and the Kemmel straight to reposition himself and overtake.. that he would have done so is not really in doubt as KR would have lost it elsewhere regardless of the pressure.

As for KR raising his game... well indeed he must....but no because Massa is kicking his ass....the person doing that is LH.

As it has become routine recently in F1 we are down to the personal interpretation of the rules. "race pace", "enough room".. nothing is defined.

LH is again the victim of his own competitive stance and perhaps a negative bias against McLaren.

But here the whole F1 loses. Next time LH will think twice before trying a pass. And so will the other drivers.

I personally think that the interpretation of the rule in this case is wrong by the stewards as LH was at that moment superiror to KR. Is not as if he cheated to gain the position... We are splitting hairs with whether he needed to slow down a little more or less...

Now Monza, where my fellow Italians Tifosi are going to make fools of themselves by insulting the only driver that this year deserves the championship...

this is the most simple way of putting it:
if he would have tried it with armco, he would have crashed big time and not have finished the race..
but there was no armco, so he took liberties... those are now penalized, and they should be...

so yes, he will think twice about trying a pass, and so he should
he should have thought about it now instead of over taking where he had no chance of making it...

He should have figured, no, i cannot make the pass, there is no room, and i can't risk a penalty for cutting
i'll take Kimi at Kemmel/Malmedy where my speed advantage is optimal.

He didn't, he screwed the pooch, he did that by himself because he didn't think twice when he should have

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1220873902.jpg

Doesn't matter why it happened - just that it did. He cut the corner and used the apron. And he was required to correct the position advantage immediately = without delay and he didn't. Nothing to do with if he needed to slow down more or less.

Simple test - could he have corrected the problem quicker than he did? If yes (which is my view) then he did not do it immediately and is therefore in breach.

To be honest, I am surprised that the lead cars are not being penalised for all the other times in those last few laps that they ran off onto the apron areas and kept going at almost full pace - going too fast for the conditions and using the aprons for a competitive advantage not used by others who adjusted their speed to the conditions and stayed on the race track.

From Planet F1

'While it was subsequently confirmed that Hamilton was under investigation for cutting the chicane shortly before overtaking Raikkonen's Ferrari, the Finn's own driving came under heavy scrutiny after the race when it was noted that he overtook Hamilton later on the same lap despite yellow flags being waved to indicate that Nico Rosberg had slid off the track.


While Hamilton apparently slowed down, Raikkonen overtook the McLaren which was then required to take to the grass in order to avoid a collision. However, despite the obvious danger of the incident, the stewards deemed it not worthy of their consideration. '

Formula 1 sporting regulations
30.3 a) During practice and the race, drivers may use only the track and must at all times observe the
provisions of the Code relating to driving behaviour on circuits.

Annex L, Chapter 4 article 2 (G)

The race track alone shall be used by the drivers during the
race.


so the stewards don't give a rats ass about how he dropped back after the facts
they simply booked him for intentionally taking a cut when he shouldn't have...

that's how i read that notice

Inconsistent application of rules is what gets everyone upset - and rightly so. They penalised Timo Glock for passing under yellow in the closing stages, so the rule was not suspended just applied inconsistently.

I know it was exciting to watch - but that's no excuse to waive the rules they ALL must abide by. They should all be out and elevate the lower cars who managed to stay on the track (apron is not track) and not pass under yellow.

If my grandma had wheels she'd be a wheelbarrow...

By that standard all cars that leave the tarmac should be penalized because if there was an armco they'd crash and their race would be finished...

The spirit of the rule is to prevent someone from having an advantage from cutting the chicane.

LH showed once again his immaturity by forcing a situation that would have turned to his advantage anyway.

But the stewards interpretation of the rules is once again suspect and in my opinion biased.

Fine so disqualify ANYBODY that leaves the track. Does not matter if he catches the car or manage to avoid the gravel trap.

Do it like at DEs... 2 wheels out and you are done.

well, i think the rule is pretty much like you say

there's just one addition , it is only enforced when there is an advantage...

you can go frigging offroading in an F1 car if that makes you happy, as long as you don't cut, and you don't hinder other drivers...

Umm, the reason he cut the corner is because Kimi forced him off the track. That has direct relevance to the situation.

Hamilton cut a corner (he really had no choice) and was penalized two positions despite the fact that he gave up a spot the second he was back on the track.

Raikonnen forced Hamilton off the track and passed under yellow. No penalty for either.