+1 (well except for the zombie comments)

+1

500 yards is not what it is going to be for personal protection. Go with the M193, which is more available and take a look at the effectiveness and bullet ballistics of the 55grn M193 inside 150 meters vs. the M855 (62gr round) or heavier at that distance.

The heavier rounds, anything over 70 grns, is somewhat controversial from what I can read. But I do not know the details of the heavier rounds for Personal Protection, I would be careful using the heavier rounds. Someone else should weigh in on the heavier round topic.

What's wrong with heavier rounds? Just accuracy issues?

And why not go for the .30 version? Just curious on your perspective since you sound like you're familiar with these and I've been considering an M1 myself (since you can't get an AR15 here).

I just read something on this regarding the M855 62 grain SS109 5.56 round currently used in the M16 A2 vs. the older M193 round with a 55 grain bullet that was used in the M16 with the 1:10 twist. Anyway, aside from the availability issue of the M855 the amount of energy delivered to the target, which is the lethality related is nearly identical between the two rounds up to about 300 meters. The bullet, upon contact with the target, is designed to tumble at a given velocity. This is where the 200 to 300 meter round effectiveness enters into the picture. This tumble velocity is part of the bullet ballistics, at least as far as I understand the design. So with that velocity being maintained the effectiveness of either round under 250 or so meters is nearly identical. Check out this link: http://www.ak-47.net/ammo/ss109.txt.

The heavier bullets are more accurate at greater ranges. If this is not the issue than from what I understand the point is that the less expensive and more available M193 round will provide nearly identical ballistics for ranges of 200 to 300 meters or less than the M855 or heavier rounds.

Are you considering an M1 Carbine? IMHO, it depends on what you want to use it for? I believe you can get the Ruger Mini-14 in 223 (5.56) so there are options to the AR. If you are looking at the M1 Carbine, you may want to take a look at a simi auto or short barrel shot gun (16"). The Carbine ballistics as I recall are not that impressive.

Check out what others have to say. It does come down to money and individual preference.
Thanks
Dan

I can't imagine ever being justified in defending myself from 500 yds. away. Sure, law and order would have disappeared by then, but I don't see too many long-range sniper situations occurring in real civil unrest. .223 is nice because the guns that use it are usually very easy to lug around, collapseable stock, composite parts, easily broken down, etc. If I had to choose only one long gun to take with me, my M4 would be it. It can reach out and touch someone if necessary, but it's well suited for close-in stuff. Parts grow on trees for these guns and their recoil won't knock my wife down.

I like my AR15, but ammo is very expensive. I'm getting ready to buy 1000 rounds from cheaperthandirt.com since it's the best deal I've found ($382). My 9mm pistols are nice too, and the ammo is cheaper.

Art, don't do it. CTD is a total ripoff. Try www.ammunitiontogo.com

Rick,
Thanks, I'll give them a try...

Sorry to hijack thread...

Rick,
Is this a good deal?

1000rds - .223 DRS 55gr. FMJ Ammo $319.95 $309.95
1000rds - .223 DRS 55gr. FMJ Ammo


This ammo is manufactured with once fired U.S. military brass. The brass will be Lake City (LC) or Winchester (WCC). It all comes off of military bases, so it is guaranteed to be once fired. It is processed and loaded by D.R.S. Manufacturing. They are a licensed and insured manufacturing company. They manufacture a full line of new and reloaded rifle and pistol ammo. This ammo is all loaded on fully automatic military loading machines. They use winchester primers, New winchester 55gr. FMJ bullets, and Hodgdon powder. This is some excellent ammunition, we have sold their ammo for over 7 years and have had no complaints. You will be amazed at how accurate and clean it is. It will come packed loose.

Depending on shipping cost, 320/k is a good deal on .223 these days. My source can only get me 360/k (delivered) on newly manufactured.

ammoman.com is good on pricing (free shipping lots of times) as is georgia-arms.com

m1 carbine doesn't fire the 30/06 it has it's own very hard to find in a pinch .30 carbine round

Art, you have to decide what kind of ammo you want to put through your rifle. I don't care about dirty ammo, so Wolf is fine with me. However, Silver Bear and Gold Bear get great reviews and are much cleaner than Wolf for about the same price. They're all Russian, but it's not old surplus ammo. It's pretty recent. The killer around here is that there are some good local suppliers, but then you have to pay 8.5% sales tax. The places with free shipping are usually more expensive than those that charge for it. If you need to spend over $500 for the free shipping, have a local friend place an order with yours to bump it to over $500. I need to grab another few thousand rounds of .223 soon. I wanted to be up to 10k by the elections and I'm not even at 4k yet.

Alright guys. Sorry. I know M1 doesn't take .30-06. I get it.

Good thoughts all. I like the M1 carbine for its durability and certainly the historical significance is nice. Currently I have my Ruger PC9 carbine for intermediate-range work and it (conveniently) fires the same 9mm luger rounds as my Glock handgun. So that's nice. For longer ranges I recently picked up a vintage Russian M91/30 which I'm sure is an accurate gun (the barrel is very long and has a fair amount of twist to it looking down, but I haven't actually measured it or shot it yet). My only reservations about it are that (1) it only uses 5-round stripper clip (no mags), (2) it uses 7.62x54R ammo which is known for using corrosive primers, so you have to be very diligent about cleaning and (3) it's bolt-action, not semi auto. But it was also very inexpensive and it's a decent looking gun. Then I've got my 12-gauge for "up close and personal" encounters. So I think I'm reasonably okay but it'd be nice to have a higher-power intermediate-to-long-range long gun like an M1 or AR15 or AK-47 too. The only disadvantage is that then there's one more type of ammo I need to buy, but that's a minor inconvenience. Since this is fascist Kalifornia and you can't get an AR-15 or AK (well, you CAN, but it's a PITA) I was thinking more along the lines of an M1 or maybe even just a good semi-auto 30-06. Any suggestions?

go to fulton armory.com fer all yer needs

Jeff, you would be well-served by an AK platform rifle. They're sure to be on the list of whatever ban is coming up next, they're still dirt cheap, grow on trees and the surplus Russian or Chinese ammo for them really does grow on trees. I really need to get one, but have just been too lazy to research what I want and what the best bang for the buck is. I'm hurting for money now and would feel stupid buying such a gun and then not being able to buy enough ammo to make it worthwhile. I guess I'll have to grab something at the next gun show. The only gun I have left that I can part with as a partial trade is an old Arisaka my grandfather got on Saipan. But he had two of them and I know he bored one of them out to .30-06. I don't know which rifle I have, so that makes it kind of hard to sell.

why a pip squeeeeeeeeek 7.62x39 or a .223 shrimp????????????????????????????

VAPORIZE 8 x 8 x 16 solid BLOCK WALLS WITH A .308! ie. bad guy behind wall.


think about that juan REAL DAMN HARD!


OVERPENETRATION is ALWAYS A GOOD THANG! be it SEX or GUNS!

please read col plasters "SNIPER" manual fer penetration values on common items found in urban areas.

my next juan is gonna be either a .50 bolt or a .338 lapua...............

to stave off the mongol(mongoloid-zombee) hordes!!!!!