McQueen Salute

[71T Targa]

Originally Posted by RPKESQ

Really, where do you people learn this nonsense?

Mostly from PPOT.

[KFC911]

I thought it meant "You're number two". For those that don't get the reference, a few years before Dale Earnhardt was killed, he gave another driver "the finger" after the race was over, and a TV commentator asked him about it. Dale's typical, "dry humor" response with his sly grin: "I was telling him he was number one" . I miss Dale, but don't miss Nascar...

[MOMO3.2]

RPKESQ:

This is a popular urban legend. It has no basis in historical fact. The gesture goes back to ancient times. It has nothing to do with English archers. Really, where do you people learn this nonsense?

I watched a program on the History Channel where they discussed how the English Long Bow reaped havoc on the French. They stated that when an English Long Bowman was captured, the French would cut off the Bowman's index and middle fingers. The two finger gesture was a taunt.

THAT is where I got this "nonsense".

Now what grounds do you have to refute this RPKESQ. Please enlighten us.

Mike

[widgeon13]

You guys could fight over a saucer of milk.

[MOMO3.2]

More ammo:

In 14th Century French historian Jean Froissart's "Chronicles," he recounts a story of the English waving their fingers at the French during the siege of a castle. According to legend, the two-fingers salute and/or V sign derives from the gestures of English longbowmen at the Battle of Agincourt (1415) during the Hundred Years War. The French, it was said, cut off the index and middle fingers of the right hand of any captured archers, and so the gesture was a sign of defiance from the greatly outnumbered English. Jean LeFevre, a Frenchman who fought on the English side at Agincourt, was later qouted as saying that Henry V included a reference to the French cutting off longbowmen's fingers in his pre-battle speech.

Mike

[widgeon13]

Originally Posted by MOMO3.2

More ammo:



Mike

How absolutely gauche of those Frenchmen.

[RPKESQ]

Here for the misguided and for those who assume their knowledge is correct. Try some proper research, aAnd be man enough to admit when your wrong.

http://www.icons.org.uk/theicons/collection/the-v-sign/biography/v-for-get-stuffed

http://snopes.com/language/apocryph/pluckyew.asp

[IROC]

I think the myth is a myth:

From wikipedia:

"According to a popular legend the two-fingers salute and/or V sign derives from the gestures of longbowmen fighting in the English army at the Battle of Agincourt (1415) during the Hundred Years' War.[4][12] The story claims that the French claimed that they would cut off the arrow-shooting fingers of all the English longbowmen after they had won the battle at Agincourt. But the English came out victorious and showed off their two fingers, still intact. Historian Juliet Barker quotes Jean Le Fevre (who fought on the English side at Agincourt) as saying that Henry V included a reference to the French cutting off longbowmen's fingers in his pre-battle speech.[13] If this is correct it confirms that the story was around at the time of Agincourt, although it doesn't necessarily mean that the French practised it, just that Henry found it useful for propaganda, and it does not show that the 'two-fingers salute' is derived from the hypothetical behaviour of English archers at that battle. Indeed, there is no record of this explanation for the V sign before the 1970s, and it seems to be a popular myth."

[Pazuzu]

I think it came from the English hooligans watching fuzzy crappy socialist BBC1 when it must have had some random American show on, where the bird was flipped (probably a football game, those Brits just love their football!). The TV was SOOOO fuzzy though, that they thought they saw TWO fingers held up, not one. So, they started running around, flipping two fingers at every old lady they saw, trying to be rude.

It just took off from there.

[futuresoptions]

Who cares... everyone knows the French can't shoot, and thats not a myth... just ask any 85 yr old German guy he'll tell ya... Now those Swedes and Ruskies... thats a different story all together....

[equality72521]

Originally Posted by futuresoptions

Who cares... everyone knows the French can't shoot, and thats not a myth... just ask any 85 yr old German guy he'll tell ya... Now those Swedes and Ruskies... thats a different story all together....

now now, there's no need to turn this into a French bashing thread.

[futuresoptions]

I better take it back right now, or I just know I am going to poke myself in the right eye today...

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by RPKESQ

Here for the misguided and for those who assume their knowledge is correct. Try some proper research, aAnd be man enough to admit when your wrong.

http://www.icons.org.uk/theicons/collection/the-v-sign/biography/v-for-get-stuffed

http://snopes.com/language/apocryph/pluckyew.asp

I did do the research a couple of days ago when the other LM thread appeared. I think there is basis for both interpretations; that it's from the Medieval times and also from before. There is no reason to believe a common gesture hasn't meant more than one thing or used in more than one way.

As far as admitting mistakes, admit you don't know how to use "your" and "you're."

[imcarthur]

While doing my own research for this fascinating (???) subject, I ran across some more related links for all of you gesturologists:

7 Innocent Gestures That Can Get You Killed Overseas

The top 10 hand gestures you’d better get right

And

An alarmingly long list of gestures from Asian countries: Gestures: Body Language and Nonverbal Communication

Ian

[KevinG]

Here's what Miley has to say on that -

[RPKESQ]

Originally Posted by milt

I did do the research a couple of days ago when the other LM thread appeared. I think there is basis for both interpretations; that it's from the Medieval times and also from before. There is no reason to believe a common gesture hasn't meant more than one thing or used in more than one way.

As far as admitting mistakes, admit you don't know how to use "your" and "you're."

Yes, I admit that although I fully understand the difference between "your and you're", I sometimes miss my typing mistakes during proofreading my replies. How is that for owning up to a mistake? Are we all happy now?

But there is no peer-reviewed historical evidence that links this gesture to English bowmen.

I'm sorry if my previous post came out too harsh. I was trying to point out that sources like the History (hysterical) Channel or an un-vetted website are hardly high quality. The History Channel has so many mistakes in it's presentations as to be the laughing stock among historians. At best it is history light, primarily intended as entertainment not education.

The Web is a powerful tool, but like any sophisticated tool, some instruction is required.

[Sonic dB]

Originally Posted by RPKESQ

It is an European gesture. It means "up yours".

Perhaps...but the Italian driver smiled back at McQueen after he did it to him.... there was a comaraderie between the 2 drivers.... imo, McQueen's character did not do it as an insult.... i think it was more of a whimsical statement out of sportsmanship.... after all, his character ran interference allowing his teammate to actually win the race...

imo... he was gesturing to the driver something like "gotcha this time, but we live to fight another day, it was fun..."


also...he could have simply been gesturing "2nd place... damn oh well" to which the Italian driver smiled back....

[RPKESQ]

Originally Posted by Sonic dB

Perhaps...but the Italian driver smiled back at McQueen after he did it to him.... there was a comaraderie between the 2 drivers.... imo, McQueen's character did not do it as an insult.... i think it was more of a whimsical statement out of sportsmanship.... after all, his character ran interference allowing his teammate to actually win the race...

imo... he was gesturing to the driver something like "gotcha this time, but we live to fight another day, it was fun..."


also...he could have simply been gesturing "2nd place... damn oh well" to which the Italian driver smiled back....

Have you ever told a buddy to f*ck off in a joking, razzing manner? Did you really mean it as an insult?

In the real world at that time these drivers knew each other and many were off track friends. Why would this gesture be any thing different or mean anything different than the typical good natured harassment between mates?

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by Sonic dB

Perhaps...but the Italian driver smiled back at McQueen after he did it to him.... there was a comaraderie between the 2 drivers.... imo, McQueen's character did not do it as an insult.... i think it was more of a whimsical statement out of sportsmanship.... after all, his character ran interference allowing his teammate to actually win the race...

imo... he was gesturing to the driver something like "gotcha this time, but we live to fight another day, it was fun..."


also...he could have simply been gesturing "2nd place... damn oh well" to which the Italian driver smiled back....

Well, back to the movie, then. I didn't feel that way about the gesture. Yes, McQ's #21 blocked the Ferrari and we'll never know why. The 2 cars were so far behind that the fact that they caught up with the 22 Porsche should have made them both faster than the lead car. After all, that was why McQ's character was placed in the car removing the original starting driver.

So, they get 2nd and 3rd and McQ spots the Italian and flips him a sign that American censors would leave alone. To me, he was saying something a little more than gotcha. However, I do fully accept that it was not a mean gesture. There was just enough smirk on Steve's face to say, "That's how it works with me, pal." The other driver seems to reply with his facial expression, "Touche'." Hey, it's a movie and they left a bit there for us to figure out. That's good movie making for a marginal plot movie.

I saw LM the 1st time on an afternoon near the college when the theater had ONE screen and 2 movies per show. I have no idea what the other one was. After the smarmy "Gran Prix" deal, it was a terrific thing to watch on the big screen. In fact, it may have been GP.

[carr914]

Originally Posted by mcvgums

I watched "LeMans" for the first time...

The First Time?, Where is the Fuch'n Cave you've been living in? I wore out my VHS copy and my DVD version almost needs to be replaced.

T.C.