Knife Sharpening For The Microscopically Anal

[jyl]

I think traditionally a steel is a smooth round bar of hard steel, that is used solely to re-align the edge.

But nowadays most consumer steels have file-like grooves so that they actually remove metal, if you apply enough pressure. So you can actually sharpen an edge with a steel, but (as I mentioned in the first post) it doesn't do a very good job of sharpening. At least, not in my hands.

I bought a diamond-coated steel once. What a waste of money, the coating wore off after a few months and I threw the thing away.

[jyl]

Couple more, then I'll stop, this is getting a bit geeky . . .

This is a 6" Henkels slicer, about 20 years old, maybe the first decent knife I ever bought. It is rather dull. Kind of the "wife's knife". She likes to toss it in the sink to rattle around w/ the dirty dishes. Not as dangerous to the dishwasher (me) as you'd think because that sort of abuse dulls the knife very quickly. We have "discussed" this many times in 18 years but at the end of the day, her attitude is that machines should function indefinitely without care, maintenance, knowledgeable operation, or indeed any attention at all.

Here's the "before" pic. Can see the edge has been steeled in a forlorn attempt to slow the dulling.



After stoning, 20 degrees, on medium stone w/ oil. I only own one stone w/ medium and fine sides, makes decisions easy.



After stoning, 20 degrees, on fine stone w/ oil. I use olive oil because it is handy and I am lazy. The grooving seems a bit finer and tidier.



After very lightly steeling, with the "un-grooved" part of the steel, to smooth off any little jaggies. Its interesting to see how just some very light steeling is easily visible.



Alas, in a week or two, this nice Henkels slicer will be a butter knife again. I think I'm going to buy the wife a Cutco, "just for you, dearie".

[RWebb]

ok, which one of you guys wants to sharpen my knives?

[pwd72s]

John, You sure your wife isn't named Cindy? I guess since we sharpen them, they figure is no big deal to use knives as they see fit.

Randy...for $10 per inch of blade, as mentioned earlier? Bring 'em on up... Or better yet, I could teach you. Really, sharpening a knife isn't all that hard...

[Pazuzu]

I love seeing that last round of pics jyl! You can clearly see the bead that forms on the edge when you hone one side more than the other. The trick with getting a REALLY sharp edge (yes, even with your pig sticker knife) is creating that bead, then snapping it off. If you can do that, then you can make the hairs on your arm/face literally JUMP off when you shave. THAT'S what "hair popping sharp" means. I can do it with my kitchen knives as well as my daily carry "tactical" Benchmade knife. Oh...it's D2 tool steel, very high Rockwell hardness, and it won't go dull quicker than a softer blade, despite what my Aridzona friend might claim.

[RWebb]

thought that was ONE dollah per inch....

actually, I have a motorized water stone - Tormek machine... great for sharpening

[aigel]

Nice - I am still waiting for the spread sheet though. A few 3D micro roughness scans would be nice too.

While this work earns you a lot of respect from the nerd crowd here, do not think that microscope pictures of your knife edge will change the spousal knife abuse.

Off to buying a stone ...

George

[gunlover05]

kinda enjoying this thread...sharpening knives is something most men who are semi-handy enjoy...I've tried all kinds of different techniques and stones and have ended up buying a Chef's Choice 3 stage electric sharpener (@ $120) and absolutely love it...won't fool with anything else - fast, easy, and leaves a consistent good edge.

[artplumber]

The thing about motorized systems are they can be indiscriminate and fast. This can result in significant metal loss, more than required for regaining an edge. You can also lose too much in one area. I like the Lansky system. Multiple grades, stone and diamond available. Consistent angles without sacrificing anything.

[GWN7]

+1 for the Lansky...I bought mine to keep broadheads "tuned up" and use it to do the same with my knifes just before hunting season starts.

Easy to use and you get a constant angle to your knifes edge

[jyl]

I went to the Lansky site and watched the video. Looks pretty cool. I might be afraid of getting careless and cutting the fingertips on the hand holding the hone. Also seems designed for normal-sized knives? Suppose you are sharpening a 14" slicer, do you have to reposition the clamp?

I learned a trick for measuring the angle. Take a square piece of paper (e.g. a post-it note) and fold along the diagonal, then fold again. That's 22.5 degrees, close enough to 20 degrees. Or, fold in thirds and get 30 degrees. And so on.

[David]

Originally Posted by charleskieffner

YES EXACTLY ! "A HARDER METAL DULLS FASTER AND IS HARDER TO KEEP AN EDGE ON"!!!!

I need more explaining on this comment. I could see if you wrote "tougher", but "harder" means higher tensile strength which would seem to me that it would keep an edge longer.

[vash]

i am with david on this one..life is a give and take.

harder metal is more difficult to hone and edge into it, but once there will hold it longer.
softer is easier to sharpen, but looses the edge faster.

at least this is how my feeble mind grasps it.

cliff

[aigel]

Originally Posted by gunlover05

kinda enjoying this thread...sharpening knives is something most men who are semi-handy enjoy...I've tried all kinds of different techniques and stones and have ended up buying a Chef's Choice 3 stage electric sharpener (@ $120) and absolutely love it...won't fool with anything else - fast, easy, and leaves a consistent good edge.

Can you give the exact model or post a pic. I checked on this and there are several three stage jobs from Chef's Choice out there. If these work well for you, I may go for them. I have little time to fiddle with my knives, including microscope analysis, but like them sharp ...

George

[scottmandue]

I'm also eyeballing a Chefs choice sharpener for my Christmas gift to myself.

At that price it seem like the model 120, they also have a 130 that appears to just to be a newer version of the 120?

For a manual system the Spiderco looks pretty nice too.

[scottmandue]

I'm bumping this thread for George and I.


I have the triple stones and the ceramic rods and all the blah, blah, blah... but I can't get into the knife sharpening ritual.

I would much rather have a machine that would give me perfect edge in a few minutes.

And if a pro charges $10 an inch the $120 Chefs choice will pay for itself many times over.

Anyone else using one?

[charleskieffner]

Originally Posted by 125shifter

I need more explaining on this comment. I could see if you wrote "tougher", but "harder" means higher tensile strength which would seem to me that it would keep an edge longer.

ok think about this. after shooting 3 x 4 elk i went to town with my lan-cay m-9 bayonet on certain aspects of elk field dressing.

when i received m-9 it had a nice edge from factory. nothing to write home about and you sure as hell werent shaving w/it.

i took my diamonds and started with fine then moved to extra fine. 22 degrees jes lak slicing some cheese.

anyway in very rapid time its edge was gone trying to cut hide away. this is normal for a high rockwell hardness blade. the m-9 is a everything knife. pry this pry that, hammer on it etc. therefore it needs high rockwell to survive its appointed duties.

after m-9 blade started fading away we then moved into elk with stanley box cutter blades. these lasted better because of their ability to HOLD AN EDGE vs the m-9.

now lets pry open an ammo box with yer wifes henkel set of knives. sharper than hell and you can shave with them. buttttttt..........when you pry open ammo box the blade breaks in 2. the m-9 with the dull blade prys open ammo box no problemos.

so the higher the rockwell hardness the edge is not going to last as long.


another example. hk g-3(hk-91) bayonet. once again high rockwell. has bloodlets same as m-9 bayonet. SOLINGEN STEEL! the best there is. you can go to town putting an edge on it, but you will never shave with it and if ya cut open a few cardboard boxes the edge you just put on with be duller than a butter knife. the tip will remain pointy and it will hurt if stuck with it..............but you aint cutting elk hide away from meat with it very long.

another example: buck 6" blade, black handle black leather case model. you can put an edge on that knife that will last a fair amount of time. you can bash a deers pelvic bone with a rock and it will take it. try the same on an elk and you are asking for it to break due to thickness of pelvic bone btwn the 2 animals.

there is no perfect knife that is a multi-functional tool. cut meat you need it sharp. break bones/pry open ammo boxes / cut hide etc. you need a different knife.

a bayonet is the middle of the road to do everything. thats how there designed. it aint the best but it will do and you can resharpen it and thats why they include stone attached to scabbard.

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by scottmandue

I'm bumping this thread for George and I.


I have the triple stones and the ceramic rods and all the blah, blah, blah... but I can't get into the knife sharpening ritual.

I would much rather have a machine that would give me perfect edge in a few minutes.

And if a pro charges $10 an inch the $120 Chefs choice will pay for itself many times over.

Anyone else using one?

I have the Chef's Choich. Mostly you use stage 3, for a quick job on the edge. Stage 1 is used when the knife is dull. Stage 2 is non motorized, and used to make a "special" edge very very good for cutting meat.

Unless the knife is DULL, I use only stage 3. It is a very light ceramic edging tool.

[jyl]

Found at http://www.knife-expert.com/rockw.txt

"THE C SCALE

The scale used for testing the hardness of knife blades and
other hardened steel items is the Rockwell C scale. C scale tests
use the diamond Brale and the full 150 kgf major load. The
theoretical maximum hardness is infinity, which would be 100 on
the Rockwell C scale. Infinite hardness is of course impossible,
and few substances test very much over RC 70. The range of
hardness for functional knife blades is mainly between about RC
50 and RC 63. Most good sport knives test around RC 58 to RC 62.
Blades toward the high end of this range tend to be good at edge
holding, but very difficult to resharpen. Blades toward the lower
end are easier to sharpen, but may not stay sharp as long,
especially under demanding use.

Because Rockwell hardness testing yields a number, it seems
absolute and precise. However the test has important limitations
often overlooked by both the marketer and the consumer. First of
all, a single test is only valid at the point of testing. Any
blade, especially one that has been hardened by hand and eye,
should be tested at several points.

Second, the Rockwell test is a surface hardness test. It
cannot reveal anything about the hardness of the interior of a
steel item.

Third, to quote from Wilson Instruments, maker of Rockwell
hardness testers, "... the Rockwell test is a measure of the
resistance of a material to permanent indentation. Indentation
hardness is not a fundamental property of a material. However,
reliable relationships have been established between the various
tests and important properties of materials -- for example,
tensile strength and machinability. Furthermore, indentation
hardness has become one of the more reliable controls of the heat
treatment and quality of manufactured parts."

[scottmandue]

Originally Posted by red-beard

I have the Chef's Choice. Mostly you use stage 3, for a quick job on the edge. Stage 1 is used when the knife is dull. Stage 2 is non motorized, and used to make a "special" edge very very good for cutting meat.

Unless the knife is DULL, I use only stage 3. It is a very light ceramic edging tool.

Do you know what the model number is?

I have been looking on the web and Chef's choice makes a couple of three stage sharpeners.

Here is a link to pdf comparison chart from the manufactures site:

http://www.chefschoice.com/docfiles/qrfelec.pdf