Now a 72 Year Old Woman tazed

[Racerbvd]

Well, his is a crazy case of nutty old lady.. Being 72 years old, she is bound to be fragile, and had the officer tried to man handle her, she could have broken her hip or wrist.. Does it look right, no, but it would appear to be the safest way to detain her. For all the Policeman knew, she could have had a gun. She did go all Jerry Springer on the cop, or she could have done this

[silverwhaletail]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

Yep.

As far as what us "lethal force expert pelicans" would or would not have done...

Dear Forrest,

I believe I referred to us as "Pelican Use of Force Experts", not "lethal force experts." The application of lethal force is easy. Non-lethal use of force is the real challenge. But you'll probably never quite "get that." Despite your high opinion of yourself, I would bet that your actually one of the dullest tools in the shed.

After reading your posts, I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that your employment history would indicate an unwillingness on the part of your employer to make you responsible for little or nothing of anything.

You are relentlessly condescending toward those who disagree with you when commenting on seemingly every topic. You seem to know pretty much everything about everything.

Yet, I suspect that your unique "skills" have not afforded you a very nice life, personally, professionally, or financially.

As for your constant rips on California, I admit that I am not a huge California fan . But I will say that the State of California has afforded me opportunities that I would have never realized had I stayed in my hometown of Cincinnati.

Its a big world buddy. Get out there and see a little bit of it.

[nynor]

sniper,

if she is an elder, she should act like one. being older does not make one an elder. being elder is an adjective, being an elder is a noun. she was behaving like a twit.

the officer was also behaving like a twit. would i have tazed her? nope.

her comments clearly indicated that she thinks she is above the law because she is a woman and older. she also clearly walked into the police officer, which is assault.

[DavidI]

Funny discussion.....Everyone is entitled to an opinion, that is the beauty of America. This particular incident would not have been an issue had the elderly woman complied with the reasonable requests of the officer.

In California, as MMarsh wrote, failure to sign a citation is cause to arrest. Signing a signature is nothing more than a promise to appear at a scheduled court date. It is NOT an admission of guilt, nor a plea of any type. There is no negotiation, regardless of the person to be cited.

As a supervisor, I have been called to the scene of many individuals who refused to sign a ticket. The officer is required to request a supervisor to the location per my Department Policy. This usually results in a 20-30 minute delay as I respond from assisting other units. During this time period, the officer is unable to respond to other calls for service causing a delay. No problem you say, until of course your child has been shot in a drive-by and is slipping into darkness. When I arrive, I give the person one opportunity to sign or they go to jail. I clearly explain the situation, and make sure the driver understands the consequences. It does not matter to me whether the person knows the mayor, Chief of Police, President, etc. as many claim. Those are the rules, which I believe to be more than fair.

In this case, the woman was clearly unwilling to cooperate with the officer's request. The officer clearly explained his position and warned the woman what the consequences would be. He chose to tase the woman. Given these circumstances, I believe his actions were reasonable given the circumstances. It is unfortunate that she is elderly, but that is not an excuse for her behavior. Had she re-entered the vehicle, the officer then would be involved in a pursuit. That puts the public, the officer, and the elderly woman in danger all over again!

If the state of Texas forces the driver to sign a citation or be arrested, I have no issue with the entire incident.

Here are some options he could have used:

- physical restraint (he most likely would have broken bones and seriously injured the woman had he taken her to the ground and handcuffed her)

- OC Spray (pepper spray) - this may have caused her to run around in a confused way, possibly running into traffic. Have sprayed many people, witnessed many people being sprayed, and being spray myself, running around is a common reaction

- Impact Weapon (baton) - definitely would have broken bones and caused injuries

- Taser - no perminent injury and charge only as long as it is activated

Given the circumstances, the Taser seems the best choice. It is ugly to watch, but it seems to be the most reasonable choice.

*** Mike, my squad is on standby should the Lakers win the championship, or not, and our beloved City of Angeles erupt into another "Celebratory Exhibition" of violence. Kind of like last time.....I hope all is peace, but if not, I will see you on the front lines.

*** Silver, one of these weekends we need to get together and grab a beer. I used to be assigned to the beautiful, notorious city just north of your work.

*** Snipey, I am interested in the "thousands" of people who have been killed by the Taser. I am a Use of Force Instructor with 20 years of experience. Please cite your verifiable source so I can research it. To the best of my understanding, the company Taser has been unsuccessfully sued many times citing wrongful death. However, the "tasee" has ALWAYS had a contributing medical condition and/or been under the influence of drugs which directly led to his or her death.

As always, I look forward to responses. Hopefully, sans emotion, with logical, well-thought out replies, David

[Moses]

Originally Posted by DavidI

This particular incident would not have been an issue had the elderly woman complied with the reasonable requests of the officer.

She offered to sign the citation before she was tazed.

Originally Posted by DavidI

If the state of Texas forces the driver to sign a citation or be arrested, I have no issue with the entire incident.

The state of Texas does NOT require the signature of the accused. The officer may simply write "Signature refused" on the citation. It's up to the discretion of the officer.

[rpastir]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

Coherent thought, you should try it some time.


Yes, because clearly, not standing PRECISELY where a cop tells you to is reason enough to juice a 72 year old woman with 10s of thousands of volts of electricity.


Because she's old and old people are often obstinate by nature. And harmless.

Let's review:


Oh, the horror.


As did the cop. Should he be tazed too?


There's no reason to pump an old woman with massive quantities of electricity just because she thinks she's being wronged and is carrying on a little. Nor is there any reason to be shoving little old ladies either.

Besides- she SIGNED the ticket.

At that point the cop should have just said, "Y'all have a nice day now," Got in his car, and drove off like a MAN. Not had a little hissy fit control freak episode and zapped some hapless old hag with enough voltage to drop a head of cattle.

That cop was a douche, and so are you for enabling him.

Get off of your soapbox a-hole. The old lady was wrong. If she acted like a responsible adult, none of that would have happened.

Your argument of "Because she's old and old people are often obstinate by nature" is probably the most assinine thing that I've read in this thread....I'm old, I've been speeding for 60 years, and you're not going to give me a ticket.

[artplumber]

If someone is 72 they are more likely to have heart disease. Heart disease is one of the "susceptible" conditions which may result in a death if a taser is used. Even if the woman needed to be subdued (once again she didn't need to be subdued or forced to sign the ticket), other, less potentially lethal options existed.

How many of us would keep pushing the "shock" button because we are told to do so (for those without this reference look up Milgram)

[deanp]

Moses - I posted this a page earlier - taken directly from the Texas Transportation Code. She had her chance to sign it and be on her way, she blew it.

Sec.A543.004.NOTICE TO APPEAR REQUIRED: CERTAIN
OFFENSES.A (a)An officer shall issue a written notice to appear
if:
(1)the offense charged is speeding or a violation of
the open container law, Section 49.03, Penal Code; and
(2)the person makes a written promise to appear in
court as provided by Section 543.005.
(b)If the person is a resident of or is operating a vehicle
licensed in a state or country other than this state, Subsection (a)
applies only as provided by Chapter 703.
(c)The offenses specified by Subsection (a) are the only
offenses for which issuance of a written notice to appear is
mandatory.
Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 165, Sec. 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1995. Amended
by Acts 1999, 76th Leg., ch. 62, Sec. 17.07, eff. Sept. 1, 1999.
Sec.A543.005. PROMISE TO APPEAR; RELEASE. To secure
release, the person arrested must make a written promise to appear
in court by signing the written notice prepared by the arresting
officer. The signature may be obtained on a duplicate form or on an
electronic device capable of creating a copy of the signed notice.
The arresting officer shall retain the paper or electronic original
of the notice and deliver the copy of the notice to the person
arrested. The officer shall then promptly release the person from
custody.

[stomachmonkey]

Interesting thread.

http://forums.officer.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-14631.html

[cl8ton]

Only takes a few ounces to pull a trigger! I think she had the strength...

[911pcars]

Originally Posted by DavidI View Post
This particular incident would not have been an issue had the elderly woman complied with the reasonable requests of the officer.

Why does this statement sound like so many other justifiable "arrest" confrontations? Does any act of disobedience automatically give an arresting officer the right to shoot, kick, beat, body slam or apply high voltage in order to force compliance beyond what is "reasonable"? If so, I can see Snipers POV about the state of law enforcement. I thought we moved past the Rodney King group-beating phase of arrest and detain.

Does cuffing always require an initial take-down? Doesn't the officer have to show some discretion as to the threat posed by a suspect? What if the suspect was a frail 10 year old instead of a frail 72 yr. old senior? Same result?

In this video, it looks like the taser gun is a Texas officer's first option for forced-compliance. Why couldn't the officer, clearly outweighing her by 100 lbs., force the suspect against the trunk lid and apply cuffs? What if the suspect was wearing a pace-maker? Studies show a taser can adversely affect the operation of a pace maker or ventricular defibrillator, then the penalty for not complying could be a shortened life span.

Did this guy require or deserve a dose?
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/gamedesignsketchbook/4882-Game-Design-Sketchbook-Police-Brutality

Or maybe the mindset is the result of certain personality types immersed in many hundreds of hours playing games such as GTA where the perps take center stage.

No one answer, but if everyone's an onlooker, it keeps happening.

Sherwood

[Moses]

Originally Posted by deanp

Moses - I posted this a page earlier - taken directly from the Texas Transportation Code. She had her chance to sign it and be on her way, she blew it.

She offered to SIGN IT! Geez...

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by silverwhaletail

Dear Forrest,

I believe I referred to us as "Pelican Use of Force Experts", not "lethal force experts." .

Whatever, i wasn't aware there was going to be a quiz. Now where is that little roll eyes emoticon...

Originally Posted by silverwhaletail

The application of lethal force is easy. Non-lethal use of force is the real challenge. But you'll probably never quite "get that." Despite your high opinion of yourself, I would bet that your actually one of the dullest tools in the shed.

Oh look! Ad hominem attacks.

How original!

I tell you what genius, if it was me that was pulling that old lady over there would not have been any force used at all. When she offered to sign the ticket i'd have let her sign it and that would have been the end of it. And if she wanted to stand out by the road i'd let her stand there. If she got hit it's her own fault for being a pain in the ass. What i WOULD NOT DO under any circumstances was push an old woman TWICE "for her own safety", nor would i taze her "for her own safety." Ever.

Jeez, if only i was an 'expert' like you, i'd understand the 'need' to have pumped that old woman with a huge dose of voltage.

I think you need more training if you think that was in any way justified amigo. Or even better, a new line of work. One that doesn't involve weapons, authority or dealing with the public.

Of course this also totally overlooks the fact that i wouldn't have pulled her over at all unless i saw her actually doing something unsafe. 60 in a 45 zone, OMG, the freaking horror...

Originally Posted by silverwhaletail

After reading your posts, I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that your employment history would indicate an unwillingness on the part of your employer to make you responsible for little or nothing of anything.

After reading your use of force post i'm going to go out on a limb and assume you'd have tazed the old woman too. Am i right, tough guy?

PS: Self Employed.

Originally Posted by silverwhaletail

You are relentlessly condescending toward those who disagree with you

Wow, pot, kettle, black.

Originally Posted by silverwhaletail

when commenting on seemingly every topic. You seem to know pretty much everything about everything.

It's a gift.

Originally Posted by silverwhaletail

Yet, I suspect that your unique "skills" have not afforded you a very nice life, personally, professionally, or financially.

Actually, aside from living in a liberal cesspool police state of a city, i'm pretty happy with life.

And i do have to say, compared to some of the nightmarish nonsense i see cops pulling on these videos i am actually really starting to appreciate the Philly police department.

Originally Posted by silverwhaletail

As for your constant rips on California, I admit that I am not a huge California fan . But I will say that the State of California has afforded me opportunities that I would have never realized had I stayed in my hometown of Cincinnati.

What, there's no cops in Cincinnati? Or are you not allowed to Taze old women there?

Originally Posted by silverwhaletail

Its a big world buddy. Get out there and see a little bit of it.

So i'm the one that speaks condescendingly eh? How's about this?

Up yours.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by Moses

She offered to SIGN IT! Geez...

Somehow this little fact has escaped the police apologists on this thread who seem to think it's fine to zap old women with massive quantities of electicity "for their own safety."

This woman was NOT zapped for refusing to sign, as you note, she offered to sign. No, she was zapped "for her own safety" because the cop wanted her to stand where he wanted her to stand, and he was not going to take no for an answer.

So in his warped and distorted view of the world, zapping an old woman with a huge dose of voltage and causing her to fall on hard pavement was the best way to "protect her from herself."

Sickening. Absolutely sickening.

Originally Posted by DavidI

Funny discussion.....Everyone is entitled to an opinion, that is the beauty of America. This particular incident would not have been an issue had the elderly woman complied with the reasonable requests of the officer.

Yes, cause clearly after she offered to sign it the cop was still not happy with that. The stop should have ended right then and there.

But nope, he had to shove her around a few times "for her own safety", then zap her with high voltage to make sure we was standing in a "safe" location. Causing her to fall on her brittle old bones in the process.

Are you for real?

Unbelieveble.

Originally Posted by DavidI

wrote, failure to sign a citation is cause to arrest. Signing a signature is nothing more than a promise to appear at a scheduled court date. It is NOT an admission of guilt, nor a plea of any type. There is no negotiation, regardless of the person to be cited.

It didn't happen in Kalifornia.

But since we're talking about irrelevancies, here in Pa the cop would have just said "whatever lady" and the ticket is still every bit as valid without a signiture.

Originally Posted by DavidI

As a supervisor, I have been called to the scene of many individuals who refused to sign a ticket. The officer is required to request a supervisor to the location per my Department Policy. This usually results in a 20-30 minute delay as I respond from assisting other units. During this time period, the officer is unable to respond to other calls for service causing a delay. No problem you say, until of course your child has been shot in a drive-by and is slipping into darkness.

Oh please. All that 20-30 minute delay is going to do is prevent the cop from stealing more money from the citizenry for his masters at city hall.

If cops and their masters were actually concerned about our safety they wouldn't be fleecing the citizenry to begin with in speed traps and the like, they'd have those cops in a position to actually fight real crime.

They also wouldn't require that the ticket be signed either, since the procedure you describe just causes huge delays and the loss of valuable man hours.

And they sure as **** wouldn't be tazing old women "for their own safety" either...

Originally Posted by DavidI

When I arrive, I give the person one opportunity to sign or they go to jail. I clearly explain the situation, and make sure the driver understands the consequences.

You mean you don't taze them "for their own safety?"

Originally Posted by DavidI

It does not matter to me whether the person knows the mayor, Chief of Police, President, etc. as many claim. Those are the rules, which I believe to be more than fair.

Yes, clearly getting fleeced by cops for your hard earned money is "fair."

Hey, out of curiosity, do you ticket other cops too? Because i know that you know that the vast overwhelming majority of cops do not ticket other cops.

Which is also quite "fair."

Originally Posted by DavidI

In this case, the woman was clearly unwilling to cooperate with the officer's request.

Incorrect, she offered to sign it. I believe (going from memory) her exact words were "oh then give me the fking thing i'll sign it." After he told her if she didn't she'd be arrested.

Originally Posted by DavidI

He chose to tase the woman. Given these circumstances, I believe his actions were reasonable given the circumstances.

Terrifying.

I don't suppose it has occured to you that he could have just let her sign the ticket and drive away, no harm, no foul?

Originally Posted by DavidI

It is unfortunate that she is elderly, but that is not an excuse for her behavior. Had she re-entered the vehicle, the officer then would be involved in a pursuit. That puts the public, the officer, and the elderly woman in danger all over again!

Terrifying squared, that you think a pursuit would be justified after she offered to sign the ticket. The reason she was tazed was because she would not stand where he told her to stand.

Originally Posted by DavidI

If the state of Texas forces the driver to sign a citation or be arrested, I have no issue with the entire incident.

Here are some options he could have used:

- physical restraint (he most likely would have broken bones and seriously injured the woman had he taken her to the ground and handcuffed her)

- OC Spray (pepper spray) - this may have caused her to run around in a confused way, possibly running into traffic. Have sprayed many people, witnessed many people being sprayed, and being spray myself, running around is a common reaction

- Impact Weapon (baton) - definitely would have broken bones and caused injuries

- Taser - no perminent injury and charge only as long as it is activated

Given the circumstances, the Taser seems the best choice. It is ugly to watch, but it seems to be the most reasonable choice.

Here's another option.

Let her sign the ticket, ignore her ranting, not insist she stand in a particular place just to get your rocks off and satisfy a need to exert total control, and then let her drive off.

And here's yet another one, if he did actually need to arrest her, "Miss turn around and put your hands behind your back right now, you're under arrest."

Obviously one needs to be an 'expert' to see how this even justified the use of ANY force whatsoever...

Take an old woman to the ground to cuff her? WTF happened to the country i grew up in? At most- at the absolute most- a simple wrist lock to put her onto her knees(gently) would have gotten the job done quite effectively. This is a 72 year old woman FFS.

Originally Posted by DavidI

*** Snipey, I am interested in the "thousands" of people who have been killed by the Taser. I am a Use of Force Instructor with 20 years of experience. Please cite your verifiable source so I can research it. To the best of my understanding, the company Taser has been unsuccessfully sued many times citing wrongful death. However, the "tasee" has ALWAYS had a contributing medical condition and/or been under the influence of drugs which directly led to his or her death.

I didn't say thousands, i said hundreds, and there is a thread about it in PARF. Feel free to look it up.

And yes, the Tazee has always had a contributing factor to their death.

They were tazed.

Originally Posted by rpastir

Get off of your soapbox a-hole.

Nope, i like my soap box just fine. Just as you seem to like yours.

A-hole.

Originally Posted by rpastir

The old lady was wrong. If she acted like a responsible adult, none of that would have happened..

If the cop had just let her sign the ticket and been on his way, this would not have happened.

But no, Mr. Tough guy cop had to be a total control freak and have things exactly has he had to have things.

Originally Posted by rpastir

Your argument of "Because she's old and old people are often obstinate by nature" is probably the most assinine thing that I've read in this thread....I'm old, I've been speeding for 60 years, and you're not going to give me a ticket.

Old people are crotchety, she was clearly no threat to anyone, the cop CLAIMS he was trying to "protect her" by insisting she stand PRECISELY where he deemed she must stand in order to satisfy his urge to exert aboslute control....so of course he zapped the living snot out of her.

To protect her.


Thank freaking god Philly cops are not allowed to have tazers, at least we don't have to deal with this particular bowl of nonsense here.

[m21sniper]

You know the repo field is not all that dissimilar to traffic stops and the like.

In fact i'd say that the financee is usually far more agitated than the average ticket recipient is, and i don't have a fancy uniform, badge, or gun to instill respect in them. I am forced to talk these people into the proper state of mind and get them to comply solely with the words that come out of my mouth and my demenaor.

You don't think these people rant and rave and carry on like douches? Of course they do. I try and act like my hands are tied, and understand their plight, and that works wonders.

"Yeah, i know bro, it sucks, we're all human and we get into crappy situations, that's why i knocked on your door instead of just taking your car/truck/bike, so that you could get your stuff out and i could tell you what was going on face to face."

Likewise the cop could have said, "Look miss, i feel bad pulling you over and all, but the violation is on my dashcam and that stuff is all logged, i have to write you up, and the rules say i have to get you to sign it or i have to arrest you. It sucks, and i don't agree with the policy, but i have to follow the rules just like you do or i'll lose my job."

Believe me, if i came across with an attitude problem like so many of these militant and confrontational cops do i would end up fighting 90% of these people. It's amazing how the overwhelming majority of people will comply with something they don't want to comply with if they're treated like actual human beings with real problems and desires and emotions instead of me (or a cop, or whoever else) acting like a confrontational jackass.

Of the thousands of repossessions i have performed, and the hundreds of subpeonas i've served(some people don't like getting those at all, let me tell you) and the many dozens of fugitive recoveries i have been a part of, i have had to use force about all of 3 or 4 times, and in every case it was a defensive use of force, i have never once initiated it. Ever.

But hey, what do i know?

[rpastir]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

But hey, what do i know?

Abso-f***ing-lutely nothing. Go reposses a car.

[m21sniper]

Go taze an old lady...

(Since you utterly lack the verbal skills to resolve even the most basic of issues without resorting to physical violence.)

PS: Very intelligent response mr. douche-nozzle.

[rpastir]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

Go taze an old lady...

Since you utterly lack the verbal skills to resolve even the most basic of issues without resorting to physical violence.

PS: Very intelligent response mr. douche-nozzle.

Ok, Ok...I get it now. After reading some of your posts in other threads, I see that I'm dealing with someone who is border line retarded and has an agenda with not only police officers, but the government as well. Maybe you should go live on Ruby Ridge.

And by the way genius, nobody here is demonstraing "verbal skills", they're written skills....which is how I make a living. I just choose not to write reams of documentation in response to "douche-nozzle"s like you. So, I'm not sure how you can state that I "utterly lack the verbal skills to resolve even the most basic of issues without resorting to physical violence".

I think I'm done here.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by rpastir

Ok, Ok...I get it now. After reading some of your posts in other threads, I see that I'm dealing with someone who is border line retarded and has an agenda with not only police officers, but the government as well. Maybe you should go live on Ruby Ridge.

Nice ad hominem personal attacks. Typical.

My "agenda" with cops is that i don't want them tazering old people for no freaking reason. Nor do i want them using force when force is clearly not warranted, nor using excessive force as opposed to what is actually warranted.

My agenda with the government is that it's gone far astray of the constitution in many areas.

I am an American citizen and military veteran, and i will speak my mind about any and all topics that annoy me, as is my constitutional right.

Don't like it? Too bad for you.

Originally Posted by rpastir

And by the way genius, nobody here is demonstraing "verbal skills", they're written skills....which is how I make a living.

I was referring to dealing with people, such as the individuals that cops interact with in traffic stops, "genius."

You said it was justified to taze the little old lady. My counter is that it was not, and the entire incident could have been resolved without violence simply via the use of calming and disarming conversation. Therefore, it is my contention that you lack the verbal skills to resolve a simple issue without the use of physical violence.

Do you understand now, or should i draw you a picture with crayons?

Originally Posted by rpastir

I just choose not to write reams of documentation in response to "douche-nozzle"s like you. So, I'm not sure how you can state that I "utterly lack the verbal skills to resolve even the most basic of issues without resorting to physical violence".

Translation: I cannot reasonably argue that the woman in the video was justifiably electrocuted in order to "protect her from herself", so i will insult you instead.

Again, typical.

Originally Posted by rpastir

I think I'm done here.

But you brought so much to the debate...

Not.

[Tim Hancock]

Lone douche nozzle in a sea of stanky beavers.