Now a 72 Year Old Woman tazed

[MMARSH]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Most of you are still missing the key point in all of this. The cop could have written "refuses to sign" on the ticket, handed it to her through the window, and been on his way. Any inquiry needs to focus on why he did not do that. Why, with this option available, he opened the door and started this confrontation. There was no need for it.

I can't speak for other states. But in California, that is not an option, if you refuse to sign the ticket, you will be arrested. It doesn't matter if it's a misdemeanor violation or infraction. You either sign or you go to jail. Those are your only options. I match the signature with that of the drivers license.

If we were allowed to write refuses to sign on the citation. It would take about a day before people started saying they never recieved the citation in the first place, and thats why they didn't show up for court and handle thier violation. So here, Everyone signs a promise to appear. If you don't, your arrested and taken to the magistrate.

I personally don't know how it works in other states, but I would rather not find out it works the same as it does in california while I'm sitting in jail waiting to see the judge. When I received my speeding ticket in Dallas six years ago, I signed and went on my way.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by trekkor

Per year?


KT

No, altogether. But it's still a disturbingly large number for a "non lethal" weapon.

I personally think they should be forever banned from police hands, as they are here in Philly.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by MMARSH

I can't speak for other states. But in California, that is not an option, if you refuse to sign the ticket, you will be arrested. It doesn't matter if it's a misdemeanor violation or infraction. You either sign or you go to jail. Those are your only options. I match the signature with that of the drivers license.

If we were allowed to write refuses to sign on the citation. It would take about a day before people started saying they never recieved the citation in the first place, and thats why they didn't show up for court and handle thier violation. So here, Everyone signs a promise to appear. If you don't, your arrested and taken to the magistrate.

I personally don't know how it works in other states, but I would rather not find out it works the same as it does in california while I'm sitting in jail waiting to see the judge. When I received my speeding ticket in Dallas six years ago, I signed and went on my way.

In Pa there is absolutely no requirement to sign the ticket. Though i always do. Usually i'll ask "how do you want it made out? To my biggest fan?" Hehhe.

According to other posters here in this thread in Texas it's optional.

And what's the charge people are arrested for in Kommiefornia for not signing their ticket? At any rate, it's just one more reason to avoid that state like the plague IMO.

[MMARSH]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

In Pa there is absolutely no requirement to sign the ticket. Though i always do. Usually i'll ask "how do you want it made out? To my biggest fan?" Hehhe.

According to other posters here in this thread in Texas it's optional.

And what's the charge people are arrested for in Kommiefornia for not signing their ticket? At any rate, it's just one more reason to avoid that state like the plague IMO.

Copied from the California Vehicle Code:
40302. Whenever any person is arrested for any violation of this
code, not declared to be a felony, the arrested person shall be taken
without unnecessary delay before a magistrate within the county in
which the offense charged is alleged to have been committed and who
has jurisdiction of the offense and is nearest or most accessible
with reference to the place where the arrest is made in any of the
following cases:
(a) When the person arrested fails to present his driver's license
or other satisfactory evidence of his identity for examination.
(b) When the person arrested refuses to give his written promise
to appear in court.
(c) When the person arrested demands an immediate appearance
before a magistrate.
(d) When the person arrested is charged with violating Section
23152.

http://ag.ca.gov/opinions/pdfs/96-1201.pdf


A motorist charged with committing an infraction is under arrest while the peace officer is in the process of issuing the notice to appear in court. (§ 836, subd. (a); People v. Superior Court (Simon), supra, 7 Cal.3d at 199-200.) The signing of the notice to appear is the means for securing the motorist's release from arrest. Section 40504, subdivision (a) provides: "The officer shall deliver one copy of the notice to appear to the arrested person and the arrested person in order to secure release must give his or her written promise to appear in court or before a person authorized to receive a deposit of bail . . . ." Hence, a person is not subject to arrest for refusing to sign the notice to appear; the arrest has already occurred.
A person who does not sign the promise to appear must be taken into custody and brought before a magistrate. As previously quoted, subdivision (b) of section 40302 requires that the "person shall be taken without unnecessary delay before a magistrate" if "the person arrested refuses to give his written promise to appear in court." In People v. Blazina (1976) 55 Cal.App.3d Supp. 35, 37, the court declared: "If the defendant refuses to sign the notice to appear, he must be taken into custody and brought before a magistrate without delay. A notice to appear is only furnished to the defendant when and if he agrees to
appear by affixing his signature."


If after court hours without delay means the next day. If on a weekend, that would be the following Monday.

[rpastir]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

And hey, here's a valid point. Cops shouldn't taze old people. Ever. But of course i did offer several valid points in the post you quoted. Apparently they were too subtle for you. My apologies.
Jackass.


And whatever happened to respecting one's elders? Lots of old people are very set in their ways and can be a bit of a handful, but should we be pumping them with massive quantities of voltage just because they do not submit EXACTLY how we say?

I can't even begin to imagine what's rolling around in that pea brain of yours. I guess "one's elders" should be able to do whatever they want to, even if it involves breaking the law and basically telling a cop to go screw themselves.

Why should that idiot be given any more slack because she's old? Let's review:

1) She broke the law (speeding)
2) When she got caught, she acted like an *******

Yeah...she's a shining example of a nice, little old lady that should be treated with respect because she was older than the cop.

Jackass +1.

[silverwhaletail]

Originally Posted by MMARSH

If we were allowed to write refuses to sign on the citation. It would take about a day before people started saying they never recieved the citation in the first place, and thats why they didn't show up for court and handle thier violation.

Fellow Pelican Use of Force Experts:

1. Arrest Control Techniques generally are only effective with people who are willing to comply. (grasping of arms or wrists or elbows, pushing people, pulling people, administering twist locks, rear wrist locks etc. etc.)
2. The next step up the ladder is pepper spray or taser.
3. If you opt not to use pepper spray or a taser, your next step up the ladder is an impact weapon. (cities spent a l o t of money on those tasers. If you elect not to use the taser before going to an impact weapon, be prepared to justify the reason(s) why in your use of force report. That is reality in 2009 my fellow experts… Like it or not, THE COURTS, via civil judgments against cities and police departments have convinced public sector risk managers that TASERS are the answer to all of law enforcements non-lethal use of force problems. Police administrators don’t like police officers to touch people anymore because “It looks bad.” Believe it or not, all we hear these days is Taser, Taser, Taser during use of force training)

I personally operate under an antiquated “Ask ‘em, Tell ‘em, Make ‘em” philosophy. I am not going to wrestle around with any idiot who won’t do what I tell him or her to do, in someone’s house, inside a club or bar, next to a set of steps, on a balcony, in the presence of the suspects family, friends (fellow gangmembers) OR NEXT TO A ROADWAY! Especially if I am by myself, like this guy was.

Yet, sometimes circumstances dictate that you act immediately. It is not always possible (or the right thing to do) to wait for an assisting officer. If it goes badly, and you acted alone, your department will ALWAYS fault you for not waiting for sufficient units. But tell that to the mother who is physically attempting to keep her drunk Mexican common law husband from getting into his pickup truck and driving away with her three kids, none of which are in car seats ( and are still half asleep and in their pajamas).

Personally, I tell you what to do and if you don’t do it, then I go straight to an impact weapon, bypassing any type of “less lethal weapons system” (I detest that term). But prior to that, I ask you as many times as possible (usually 10 to 20 times if I firmly believe that a serious use of force is about to occur) while my audio/video system is capturing my exact verbiage. And I say “please” prior to the command, and I say “Sir” after the command, EVERY SINGLE TIME that I give the command

I killed a crack head burglar named Leo Dawson with pepper spray. Bad Outcome. I was one of several less lethal shooters that shot an idiot on a rooftop with a less lethal shotgun 65 times. He didn’t quite die, but yet again, another Bad Outcome.

Policing is unpleasant. Often, its downright ugly. Having to ask a male transvestite prostitute with AIDS and boobs if he has a penis before you perform an outer layer clothing search for weapons is repulsive. But underestimating the strength of a man with a box knife in his bra that you thought was a woman can have serious permanent consequences. Wondering exactly what that sticky substance all over his skirt is, while you have the back of his thigh against the front of your thigh while conducting a standing modified search is “just something you have to do.” And if you are specifically working whores on Pacific Coast Highway that night, guess what? You’ll be doing it on and off for 10 hours. Why? Because the nice families that live on the residential streets that run parallel to PCH are sick and tired of hookers sucking dicks inside cars parked on the street directly in front of their house. And finding used condoms and needles strewn on the sidewalk when they go out to get the paper in the morning.

We (street cops) learn to survive and to actually thrive in a work environment in which every single critical incident in which we are a part of is dissected and second guessed for days, months and sometimes years by people who are not concerned about keeping your neighborhood safe. I have dedicated my life to keeping your neighborhood safe. And I’m honored to have the privilege to serve you.

Maybe that cop who tazed the 72 year old lady is no better or worse cop than I am. Maybe he is no better or worse cop than any of us Pelican Use of Force Experts would have been at that exact moment, in that exact circumstance in that exact place.

[GH85Carrera]

Thanks your for your service to protect the public. Every contact I have ever had with law enforcment has been 100% professional.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by MMARSH

I can't speak for other states. But in California, that is not an option, if you refuse to sign the ticket, you will be arrested. It doesn't matter if it's a misdemeanor violation or infraction. You either sign or you go to jail. Those are your only options. I match the signature with that of the drivers license.

If we were allowed to write refuses to sign on the citation. It would take about a day before people started saying they never recieved the citation in the first place, and thats why they didn't show up for court and handle thier violation. So here, Everyone signs a promise to appear. If you don't, your arrested and taken to the magistrate.

I personally don't know how it works in other states, but I would rather not find out it works the same as it does in california while I'm sitting in jail waiting to see the judge. When I received my speeding ticket in Dallas six years ago, I signed and went on my way.

I can't understand the logic in signing a ticket. In MA you get a ticket, same in CT and NY. At time of ticket, officer enters your license info and registration info into the computer and on the ticket. Why on Earth would you have to sign anything? You don't pay or contest, the state pulls your license and registration. It's that easy. Signing seems like an unnecessary "control" thing that serves no useful purpose other than to intimidate.

Wouldn't ever happen, but I'd love to see an organized revolt in which everyone says, "take me to jail" to flood the system and get tax collectors off the roads. A month of that and the law would change fast.

[berettafan]

wish i could say the same.

traffic tickets are a tax collected at the whim of the officer. what the dumbass cop did is no different than an IRS agent walking into my office and tasing a client who owes money but refuses to sign a personal financial statement. it's lunacy and ignorance wrapped into one.

[berettafan]

silver you talked about crack whores giving bj's and throwing needles all over the place, you talked about burglars, you talked about transvestites hiding box cutters in their bras.

i'm gonna assume you are capable of recognizing the difference between these things and a *****y 72yr old woman.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by MMARSH

I can't speak for other states. But in California, that is not an option, if you refuse to sign the ticket, you will be arrested. It doesn't matter if it's a misdemeanor violation or infraction. You either sign or you go to jail. Those are your only options. I match the signature with that of the drivers license.

If we were allowed to write refuses to sign on the citation. It would take about a day before people started saying they never recieved the citation in the first place, and thats why they didn't show up for court and handle thier violation. So here, Everyone signs a promise to appear. If you don't, your arrested and taken to the magistrate.

I personally don't know how it works in other states, but I would rather not find out it works the same as it does in california while I'm sitting in jail waiting to see the judge. When I received my speeding ticket in Dallas six years ago, I signed and went on my way.

I was never even asked to sign the last ticket I received (the topic of my "letter to the Sheriff" thread). I was surprised - I thought it was a requirement in Washington as well. Guess not.

I'm just going on what another Pelican said a page or two back. If Texas law is similar to Washington law, the officer could have just given her the ticket and left.

It is sounding more and more to me as though California law still requires far more from the officer and the courts than Washington law requires. That's a good thing. Matching signatures adds to the validity of the case. Up here, that does not seem to matter. I think if we tried to claim it wasn't us, and used the lack of a signature to try to establish it was not, the courts' attitude would still be something like "prove it wasn't you." Sounds like in California, you guys still need to prove it was. A very important distinction.

[deanp]

submitted without comment....

TRANSPORTATION CODE. CHAPTER 543. ARREST AND PROSECUTION OF
VIOLATORS
TRANSPORTATION CODE
TITLE 7. VEHICLES AND TRAFFIC
SUBTITLE C. RULES OF THE ROAD
CHAPTER 543. ARREST AND PROSECUTION OF VIOLATORS
SUBCHAPTER A. ARREST AND CHARGING PROCEDURES; NOTICES AND PROMISES
TO APPEAR
Sec.A543.001.ARREST WITHOUT WARRANT AUTHORIZED.A Any peace
officer may arrest without warrant a person found committing a
violation of this subtitle.
Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 165, Sec. 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1995.
Sec.A543.002.A PERSON ARRESTED TO BE TAKEN BEFORE
MAGISTRATE.A (a)A person arrested for a violation of this
subtitle punishable as a misdemeanor shall be immediately taken
before a magistrate if:
(1)the person is arrested on a charge of failure to
stop in the event of an accident causing damage to property; or
(2)the person demands an immediate appearance before
a magistrate or refuses to make a written promise to appear in court
as provided by this subchapter.
(b)The person must be taken before a magistrate who:
(1)has jurisdiction of the offense;
(2)is in the county in which the offense charged is
alleged to have been committed; and
(3)is nearest or most accessible to the place of
arrest.
Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 165, Sec. 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1995.
Sec.A543.003.NOTICE TO APPEAR REQUIRED: PERSON NOT TAKEN
BEFORE MAGISTRATE.A An officer who arrests a person for a violation
of this subtitle punishable as a misdemeanor and who does not take
the person before a magistrate shall issue a written notice to
appear in court showing the time and place the person is to appear,
the offense charged, the name and address of the person charged,
1
and, if applicable, the license number of the person ’s vehicle.
Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 165, Sec. 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1995. Amended
by Acts 1999, 76th Leg., ch. 701, Sec. 3, eff. Aug. 30, 1999.
Sec.A543.004.NOTICE TO APPEAR REQUIRED: CERTAIN
OFFENSES.A (a)An officer shall issue a written notice to appear
if:
(1)the offense charged is speeding or a violation of
the open container law, Section 49.03, Penal Code; and
(2)the person makes a written promise to appear in
court as provided by Section 543.005.
(b)If the person is a resident of or is operating a vehicle
licensed in a state or country other than this state, Subsection (a)
applies only as provided by Chapter 703.
(c)The offenses specified by Subsection (a) are the only
offenses for which issuance of a written notice to appear is
mandatory.
Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 165, Sec. 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1995. Amended
by Acts 1999, 76th Leg., ch. 62, Sec. 17.07, eff. Sept. 1, 1999.
Sec.A543.005. PROMISE TO APPEAR; RELEASE. To secure
release, the person arrested must make a written promise to appear
in court by signing the written notice prepared by the arresting
officer. The signature may be obtained on a duplicate form or on an
electronic device capable of creating a copy of the signed notice.
The arresting officer shall retain the paper or electronic original
of the notice and deliver the copy of the notice to the person
arrested. The officer shall then promptly release the person from
custody.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by rpastir

I can't even begin to imagine what's rolling around in that pea brain of yours.

Coherent thought, you should try it some time.

Originally Posted by rpastir

I guess "one's elders" should be able to do whatever they want to, even if it involves breaking the law and basically telling a cop to go screw themselves.

Yes, because clearly, not standing PRECISELY where a cop tells you to is reason enough to juice a 72 year old woman with 10s of thousands of volts of electricity.

Originally Posted by rpastir

Why should that idiot be given any more slack because she's old?

Because she's old and old people are often obstinate by nature. And harmless.

Let's review:

Originally Posted by rpastir

1) She broke the law (speeding)

Oh, the horror.

Originally Posted by rpastir

2) When she got caught, she acted like an *******

As did the cop. Should he be tazed too?

Originally Posted by rpastir

Yeah...she's a shining example of a nice, little old lady that should be treated with respect because she was older than the cop.

There's no reason to pump an old woman with massive quantities of electricity just because she thinks she's being wronged and is carrying on a little. Nor is there any reason to be shoving little old ladies either.

Besides- she SIGNED the ticket.

At that point the cop should have just said, "Y'all have a nice day now," Got in his car, and drove off like a MAN. Not had a little hissy fit control freak episode and zapped some hapless old hag with enough voltage to drop a head of cattle.

That cop was a douche, and so are you for enabling him.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by deanp

(2)the person demands an immediate appearance before
a magistrate or refuses to make a written promise to appear in court
as provided by this subchapter.

She signed it.

[Netspeed]

Originally Posted by silverwhaletail

Fellow Pelican Use of Force Experts:

1. Arrest Control Techniques generally are only effective with people who are willing to comply. (grasping of arms or wrists or elbows, pushing people, pulling people, administering twist locks, rear wrist locks etc. etc.)
2. The next step up the ladder is pepper spray or taser.
3. If you opt not to use pepper spray or a taser, your next step up the ladder is an impact weapon. (cities spent a l o t of money on those tasers. If you elect not to use the taser before going to an impact weapon, be prepared to justify the reason(s) why in your use of force report. That is reality in 2009 my fellow experts… Like it or not, THE COURTS, via civil judgments against cities and police departments have convinced public sector risk managers that TASERS are the answer to all of law enforcements non-lethal use of force problems. Police administrators don’t like police officers to touch people anymore because “It looks bad.” Believe it or not, all we hear these days is Taser, Taser, Taser during use of force training)

I personally operate under an antiquated “Ask ‘em, Tell ‘em, Make ‘em” philosophy. I am not going to wrestle around with any idiot who won’t do what I tell him or her to do, in someone’s house, inside a club or bar, next to a set of steps, on a balcony, in the presence of the suspects family, friends (fellow gangmembers) OR NEXT TO A ROADWAY! Especially if I am by myself, like this guy was.

Yet, sometimes circumstances dictate that you act immediately. It is not always possible (or the right thing to do) to wait for an assisting officer. If it goes badly, and you acted alone, your department will ALWAYS fault you for not waiting for sufficient units. But tell that to the mother who is physically attempting to keep her drunk Mexican common law husband from getting into his pickup truck and driving away with her three kids, none of which are in car seats ( and are still half asleep and in their pajamas).

Personally, I tell you what to do and if you don’t do it, then I go straight to an impact weapon, bypassing any type of “less lethal weapons system” (I detest that term). But prior to that, I ask you as many times as possible (usually 10 to 20 times if I firmly believe that a serious use of force is about to occur) while my audio/video system is capturing my exact verbiage. And I say “please” prior to the command, and I say “Sir” after the command, EVERY SINGLE TIME that I give the command

I killed a crack head burglar named Leo Dawson with pepper spray. Bad Outcome. I was one of several less lethal shooters that shot an idiot on a rooftop with a less lethal shotgun 65 times. He didn’t quite die, but yet again, another Bad Outcome.

Policing is unpleasant. Often, its downright ugly. Having to ask a male transvestite prostitute with AIDS and boobs if he has a penis before you perform an outer layer clothing search for weapons is repulsive. But underestimating the strength of a man with a box knife in his bra that you thought was a woman can have serious permanent consequences. Wondering exactly what that sticky substance all over his skirt is, while you have the back of his thigh against the front of your thigh while conducting a standing modified search is “just something you have to do.” And if you are specifically working whores on Pacific Coast Highway that night, guess what? You’ll be doing it on and off for 10 hours. Why? Because the nice families that live on the residential streets that run parallel to PCH are sick and tired of hookers sucking dicks inside cars parked on the street directly in front of their house. And finding used condoms and needles strewn on the sidewalk when they go out to get the paper in the morning.

We (street cops) learn to survive and to actually thrive in a work environment in which every single critical incident in which we are a part of is dissected and second guessed for days, months and sometimes years by people who are not concerned about keeping your neighborhood safe. I have dedicated my life to keeping your neighborhood safe. And I’m honored to have the privilege to serve you.

Maybe that cop who tazed the 72 year old lady is no better or worse cop than I am. Maybe he is no better or worse cop than any of us Pelican Use of Force Experts would have been at that exact moment, in that exact circumstance in that exact place.

My hat's off to you and any other police officer. You guys get to see the ugly side of humans which many, many people never get to see. It's a tough, demanding job (a good friend is Burbank PD and another CHP) that only gets media attention when some pinhead refuses to obey.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by berettafan

wish i could say the same.

traffic tickets are a tax collected at the whim of the officer. what the dumbass cop did is no different than an IRS agent walking into my office and tasing a client who owes money but refuses to sign a personal financial statement. it's lunacy and ignorance wrapped into one.

Yep.

As far as what us "lethal force expert pelicans" would or would not have done in that (scumbag) cops shoes, i will state outright that anyone who would taze a little old person for for any reason other than an act of reasonable self defense should never be allowed near weapons of any sort, and most certainly should not have a badge.

Further, anyone who would shove a little old person for any reason short of a justifiable act of self defense or to protect said old person from a real and imminent threat or danger should be savagely beaten by a pack of cane wielding senior citizens.

Millions (if not tens of millions) of Americans deal with what cops deal with every day because they live in the hoods where the cops work, and go to the public schools or try to use the public recreation facilities in these areas. Unlike the cops, they do not get a badge and a gun and "the benefit of the doubt." These people also do not get to go home at night after their shift is over.

They are home.

It's bad enough having to keep an eye out for the drug dealers, junkies, pimps, con men and armed robbers without having to worry about being harassed/beaten/robbed/tazed/shot by the cops as well, just because you didn't accept your government fleecing/act of theft...erm "traffic ticket" with a smile and a thank you.

[Pazuzu]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

Because she's old and old people are often obstinate by nature. And harmless.

Yeah! Old people never cause harm to anyone!

89 year old men never walk into a building with a rifle and BLOW SOMEONE AWAY.

Old people are harmless.

[Netspeed]

Originally Posted by Pazuzu

Yeah! Old people never cause harm to anyone!

89 year old men never walk into a building with a rifle and BLOW SOMEONE AWAY.

Old people are harmless.

+1
Don't forget Phil Spector too

[Tim Hancock]

Originally Posted by Pazuzu

Yeah! Old people never cause harm to anyone!

89 year old men never walk into a building with a rifle and BLOW SOMEONE AWAY.

Old people are harmless.

That right there is priceless!!!!

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by Pazuzu

Yeah! Old people never cause harm to anyone!

89 year old men never walk into a building with a rifle and BLOW SOMEONE AWAY.

Old people are harmless.

Did the woman in this video have a rifle?

Well....?

By the way, i did say in my last post:

Originally Posted by M21 Sniper

i will state outright that anyone who would taze a little old person for for any reason other than an act of reasonable self defense

But perhaps you're right. Maybe it should be policy to just taze all old people...just in case. :-/