Tour de Lance '09

[dd74]

Originally Posted by teenerted1

been in the bike industry since 1986

used to have a serotta.

racers have always opted for stiffness over flex.

many companies are using the same factories in asia, but they have contracts to either use a common design or one of their own.
some companies use the same common frame. more likely with more mass produced models. but they are not all the same and all from china.

but when it comes to carbon most are using their own designs and might contract to the same plant in taiwan but they still dont share much.

sorry to burst your bubble but cabon frames dont break if you drop them. have you ever tried to break a carbon post? try hitting a steal pipe with a carbon post then a steal post on same steal pipe...neither breaks and the carbon one doesnt sting your hands.

treks at anything other than a Independent Bike Dealer?
doubt that, they have very strict rules on who sells their bikes. most of the higher end brands do.

the waterford schwinn paramount is not the same as the Schwinn that is sold through wally world and thus not the same money involved it supporting a pro team of the level that participates in "le Tour"
Schwinn was sold in 1993 to the Scott Sports Group, who retained the Paramount name/ trademark but sold off the Waterford factory. It was purchased and is now run by Marc Muller, Richard Schwinn (the great grandson of Ignaz Schwinn) and George Garner. George got his start at Hans Ohrt Lightweight bicycles in Beverly Hills. George bought Valley Cyclery in Van Nuys, California in the late 1940's( I worked there in 1979 ) and established 4 more shops in the Los Angles area. I mention him and his background because he was instrumental in working with Frank W. Schwinn, Ray Burch and Schwinn's marketing dept to develop the 'total-concept store' as well as uniform work procedures, marketing, advertising and company service schools to keep all dealers up to date. Waterford Precision Cycles is alive and doing quite well, a great success in their own right. That success, is owed in part to their early pioneering efforts with oversize tubesets such as 753 and 853 as well as their unique relationship with Reynolds.

the big schwinn is now part of Doral Industries...along with several other marques
http://www.dorel.com/marques.htm

I think you repeated my point about Schwinn, but anyway, to get to the point of carbon: I know quite a few riders who have broken c/f bikes, and others who have watched theirs shatter after they've fallen over on their side. High-end carbon bikes at that.

I'll even introduce you to one who broke his just tooling around on it. And he's not even a top rider.

Steel can be repaired. Carbon...nope. Even if it's been deeply scratched its dumpster time.

Then again, if I wanted a disposable rig I couldn't give two craps about in a crit, sure, I'd ride carbon.

Looks and Times not withstanding, and the occasional Trek Madone, the rest is a yawner without the least bit of personality.

Plus they sound terrible when going over ruts, bumps, reflectors in the road, etc. Every time I'm beside a carbon bike, they sound like they're falling apart.

[dd74]

Originally Posted by Zef

Thanks for the info Ted....My beast is a carbon one, shimano Ultegra equipped....No regret yet to have go by carbon...I simply love the rigidity it come with....!

Marinoni admits that he has made concessions to market demands, the biggest being to offer ultra-lightweight carbon-fibre frames, which he has welded in Taiwan, despite favouring traditional steel frames. The company's most expensive option, the carbon-tubed, titanium-lugged Fusion, sells for up to $10,000, depending on the customer's specifications, and about 10 of these are ordered each year.

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/yourbusiness/story.html?id=2253a1ff-a288-45bf-9ada-e3ef22e91d56

It's all good...I guess.

[look 171]

Originally Posted by Zef

Thanks for the info Ted....My beast is a carbon one, shimano Ultegra equipped....No regret yet to have go by carbon...I simply love the rigidity it come with....!

Wow, are they still made in Canada? When I was a pimple faced teenager, I remember an old German semi pro(so he claims) that I learned a bit about cycling from had one in the early 80s. Steel bike, of course. It was beautiful.

[look 171]

Originally Posted by teenerted1

been in the bike industry since 1986

used to have a serotta.

racers have always opted for stiffness over flex.

many companies are using the same factories in asia, but they have contracts to either use a common design or one of their own.
some companies use the same common frame. more likely with more mass produced models. but they are not all the same and all from china.

but when it comes to carbon most are using their own designs and might contract to the same plant in taiwan but they still dont share much.

sorry to burst your bubble but cabon frames dont break if you drop them. have you ever tried to break a carbon post? try hitting a steal pipe with a carbon post then a steal post on same steal pipe...neither breaks and the carbon one doesnt sting your hands.

treks at anything other than a Independent Bike Dealer?
doubt that, they have very strict rules on who sells their bikes. most of the higher end brands do.

the waterford schwinn paramount is not the same as the Schwinn that is sold through wally world and thus not the same money involved it supporting a pro team of the level that participates in "le Tour"
Schwinn was sold in 1993 to the Scott Sports Group, who retained the Paramount name/ trademark but sold off the Waterford factory. It was purchased and is now run by Marc Muller, Richard Schwinn (the great grandson of Ignaz Schwinn) and George Garner. George got his start at Hans Ohrt Lightweight bicycles in Beverly Hills. George bought Valley Cyclery in Van Nuys, California in the late 1940's( I worked there in 1979 ) and established 4 more shops in the Los Angles area. I mention him and his background because he was instrumental in working with Frank W. Schwinn, Ray Burch and Schwinn's marketing dept to develop the 'total-concept store' as well as uniform work procedures, marketing, advertising and company service schools to keep all dealers up to date. Waterford Precision Cycles is alive and doing quite well, a great success in their own right. That success, is owed in part to their early pioneering efforts with oversize tubesets such as 753 and 853 as well as their unique relationship with Reynolds.

the big schwinn is now part of Doral Industries...along with several other marques
http://www.dorel.com/marques.htm

Velley Cycle, was that the place on Woodley with the big rainbow stripe painted on the wall. I started riding in 1980 but really got serious in 82. Were you a local club rider? I met a few monsters like Thurlow Rogers from the valley doing the wed ride in the park.

[look 171]

I grew up riding and crashed many steel bikes. Why are we so caught up on steel? I like carbon. when I use to go out and beat my self up I had a bad habbit of always grabbing my Look 171 that I called the Jalabert special. I think slope top tube steel is just really ugly and so its some of the carbon. I would buy a Cervelo or Giant (had their 1st team alum. bike) if I was in the market for a bike. I have been out of the loop on bikes, is that Cannandale they are riding in the Tour carbon or are they still alum?

[Zef]

Originally Posted by look 171

I grew up riding and crashed many steel bikes. Why are we so caught up on steel? I like carbon. when I use to go out and beat my self up I had a bad habbit of always grabbing my Look 171 that I called the Jalabert special. I think slope top tube steel is just really ugly and so its some of the carbon. I would buy a Cervelo or Giant (had their 1st team alum. bike) if I was in the market for a bike. I have been out of the loop on bikes, is that Cannandale they are riding in the Tour carbon or are they still alum?

I still have my first steel one (Marinoni) and my first aluminum one (Giant), I rarely take'em out for a ride...the VR2 is always there waiting for...but hey...! For me, carbon is the way to go....

[T77911S]

Originally Posted by teenerted1

been in the bike industry since 1986

used to have a serotta.

racers have always opted for stiffness over flex.

many companies are using the same factories in asia, but they have contracts to either use a common design or one of their own.
some companies use the same common frame. more likely with more mass produced models. but they are not all the same and all from china.

but when it comes to carbon most are using their own designs and might contract to the same plant in taiwan but they still dont share much.

sorry to burst your bubble but cabon frames dont break if you drop them. have you ever tried to break a carbon post? try hitting a steal pipe with a carbon post then a steal post on same steal pipe...neither breaks and the carbon one doesnt sting your hands.

treks at anything other than a Independent Bike Dealer?
doubt that, they have very strict rules on who sells their bikes. most of the higher end brands do.

the waterford schwinn paramount is not the same as the Schwinn that is sold through wally world and thus not the same money involved it supporting a pro team of the level that participates in "le Tour"
Schwinn was sold in 1993 to the Scott Sports Group, who retained the Paramount name/ trademark but sold off the Waterford factory. It was purchased and is now run by Marc Muller, Richard Schwinn (the great grandson of Ignaz Schwinn) and George Garner. George got his start at Hans Ohrt Lightweight bicycles in Beverly Hills. George bought Valley Cyclery in Van Nuys, California in the late 1940's( I worked there in 1979 ) and established 4 more shops in the Los Angles area. I mention him and his background because he was instrumental in working with Frank W. Schwinn, Ray Burch and Schwinn's marketing dept to develop the 'total-concept store' as well as uniform work procedures, marketing, advertising and company service schools to keep all dealers up to date. Waterford Precision Cycles is alive and doing quite well, a great success in their own right. That success, is owed in part to their early pioneering efforts with oversize tubesets such as 753 and 853 as well as their unique relationship with Reynolds.

the big schwinn is now part of Doral Industries...along with several other marques
http://www.dorel.com/marques.htm

nice to see someone with an inteligent comment other than bike "X" sucks and steel is real.
if carbon was so brittle, they would be trashing bikes on P roubaix.
i have one of the first postal bikes, the red white and blue one. been a good bike.
i did have 2 other trek 5500 carbon frames. the first one i bought used. the chain stay got a small crack and trek warrantied it. got a new frame. the bottom bracket came lose, trek warrantied it. what sucked about that one is that i custom painted the frame myself. that says a lot for a company that stands behind their product.
i bought a brand new giant before that. the wheel would not stay true, fought with for months. i had to pay part of the replacement.
i did ride a cannondale for a while, it was a little more comfortable as far as fit. the C dale was a tad too big and my trek is a tad too small.

one benefit from the carbon, besides weight, is how much it smoothes out the bumbs. at the end of a race, that can make a difference. dont get me wrong, i love the looks of steel, the waterford is an incredible bike, but the trek is what i have and ride.
as far as weight, i would like to see the scales they are using. ive never been able to get my trek close to some of these proclaimed weights. maybe with no pedals, no bottle cages. i gave up on the weight thing years ago anyway. sometimes reliability and comfort have to take a front seat to weight.

steel as far as feel- ^^^^^^^. carbon-~~~~~~~~~. not saying steel sucks, i would love to have a waterford. infact, i almost bought one, just a bit out of my price range.
i talked with the guy at waterford. he was telling me they are one of the few companies that reynolds (?) let use the , i think was, 853? steel for the rear. triangle. that was a long time ago. trek was not even using that steel on the rear of the lemond.
BTW, my first road bike was a schwinn, prelude. my MTB is a specialized steel frame.



100 miles, the last 25 is ALL uphill except on 1 2 mile down section.

[billybek]

I think it is going to be one of those days....
Turn on the idiot box to watch the tour on OLN and Shaw Cable have decided that I don't need to watch that channel anymore.
It looks like satellite TV will be the way to go....
Edit:
After having a cup of coffee and waking up a bit, it seems they moved the channel....
I guess I won't have to move to satellite TV just yet....

[T77911S]

i never cared for the sloped top tubes either.
i do have a spare Cdale frame, i think it is a caad 5, the saeco frame. i got it as a spare from a friend after seeing i guy break his fork in a race.
thank goodness i never needed it. never went down in a race. came very very close once or twice. caught my tires in a crack where the curb came down and joined the asphalt. pulled my left hand off the bars to catch me as i fell, but i stayed up, dont know how.

[Laneco]

I guess I'm at the opposite end of the spectrum. I really like the sloped tubes with the long seatpost. Then again, the size issue really crops up here. This works very nicely when your frame size is 47 to 49 centimeters like mine - apparently my legs barely reach the ground when I'm standing up... Not so good when you're a 6' guy!

For me carbon is a "ride and see" sort of thing. The material is incredibly tune able. You can get everything from stiff and harsh to flexible flier depending on the material and layup. When someone is in the market for a carbon bike, they really need to ride EXACTLY the model they are considering and never make a blanket assumption that carbon "rides" a particular way...

I've had a series of aluminum bikes, all of them some version of stiff, harsh and buzzy on chipseal. The best upgrade I ever did was to go to a nice carbon fork. It was like a whole different machine. All the stiffness I like in the rear triangle but a little compliance in the front end and some nice vibration dampening. Sweet....

A couple of friends have newer Landsharks with a carbon rear triangle and a very high end columbus (forget which one) steel tubing on the main. Phenomenal... Light too. Out of my price range, but if money were not an object, I would be throwing down in that direction!

This year's tour... Very, very interesting that the next to last stage is in the mountains. It could come down to an all the marbles or miss the podium race on that stage!

angela

[dd74]

If you know what you're doing, you can tune the ride of any bike. The last place I'd tune ride is in the frame. The first place is tire pressure. Tires are also the first place to add or subtract stiffness.

It doesn't matter how stiff a frame is if tire pressure is off.

The first place to lose weight with a bicycle is in the wheels. It's also another place to add or subtract stiffness.

So the whole "stiff frame" stuff might be a bit of a myth. Frame angle, wheelbase, chainstay length has as big a part in stiffness as material. I've heard plenty of guys who own steel bicycles by Pegoretti, Merckx and even the Schwinn-Serotta Ti say these frames are the stiffer than carbon. Personally, I think that's bad as every frame should have some compliance for handling purposes. That's where tire pressure comes in again.

Originally Posted by T77911S

nice to see someone with an inteligent comment other than bike "X" sucks and steel is real.

If you're referring to bike X as a carbon bike, um...no, I never said carbon "sucks." Carbon just isn't my cup of tea. I've also seen carbon break more than steel bend beyond repair. When I've had steel bikes as light as 16 lbs on which I have not had to compromise my idea of ride quality, to that end I have not seen the need for carbon, unless, like I said, I want a bike I can completely thrash and easily replace.

Originally Posted by T77911S

if carbon was so brittle, they would be trashing bikes on P roubaix.

How do you know the bikes are carbon? Supposedly Mark Cavendish uses a steel Dolan on the Paris-Roubaix - it just has stickers from whomever provides his team bicycles to mask the difference.

[dd74]

Here's my example of a good beat-em-up carbon frame.

http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/centurycomp_08_carbon.htm

It comes with parts, too.

[tcar]

So, TdF standings stay basically the same today...

Wait until the Alps?

[924slover]

i still use my old steel nishiki that my father bought at a yard sale and he fixed then when i worked at a bike shop i upgraded the brakes,bottom bracket, hubs,crank,handlebars,wheels, tires etc everything except the frame it looks like crap but I've put it up against other much more expensive bike's and it's faster and much more reliable.

and on the mtb side of things i still ride my fuji tahoe thats stock and it takes a beating like you wouldn't believe

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Originally Posted by 924slover

i still use my old steel nishiki that my father bought at a yard sale and he fixed then when i worked at a bike shop i upgraded the brakes,bottom bracket, hubs,crank,handlebars,wheels, tires etc everything except the frame it looks like crap but I've put it up against other much more expensive bike's and it's faster and much more reliable.

and on the mtb side of things i still ride my fuji tahoe thats stock and it takes a beating like you wouldn't believe

That was the story with my old Pinarello... I probably had close to $2k in components on that bike and it was hilarious as hell to go sailing by all the fat lawyers and entertainment industry types on Saturday mornings on my "looks like hell" 1980s steel frankenbike as they huffed and puffed along on their $5,000 Cervelos. I have very, very fond memories of that bike. It broke my heart when it got ripped off - even more so knowing that it almost certainly ended up with some opportunist or crackhead or other jerkoff that had no idea what they'd "acquired". Probably pawned it off for $50 to go buy some crack. There are very few enthusiast types around that would have appreciated what I'd done to that bike...

It was awesome enough to give me the "brand loyalty" to go buy a newer-model Pinarello, which happens to be aluminum/carbon. I do like it - it's a great ride and it's very quick and responsive, but not quite the same "soul" as the steel one. I'll eventually get another I think. Either another Pinarello or a Colnago would be ideal. Preferably with Campy stuff.

[billybek]

Was today's stage winner riding a Focus?
That was the first real mountain bike that I raced on. Tight rear triangle and steep angles on the seat and head tube. I loved that bike until I folded it up.
It was pink, but it was called burnt purple... Good job I had the lungs to back it up back then.

[dd74]

Originally Posted by billybek

Was today's stage winner riding a Focus?
That was the first real mountain bike that I raced on. Tight rear triangle and steep angles on the seat and head tube. I loved that bike until I folded it up.
It was pink, but it was called burnt purple... Good job I had the lungs to back it up back then.

Stage 12 winner, Nicki Sorensen, was/is riding a Specialized. But you're partly correct - he was focused.

[HardDrive]

Carbon bashing? Come on.....fantastic material.

Look, I should know, I ride an 73 steel Fuji single speed half the time, and an 07 Specialized Roubaix the other half. They both have their strong suits, but the frame on my Specialized is not just good, its GREAT. Laterally stiff, vertically smooth and comfortable, zero chatter....SO good. My dad drives one of the original Trek 5200 carbon frames as his triathlon bike! Its purple, before they went to USPS colors. Tens of thousands of miles, zero issues, rides like a dream.

I like my steel, but I think you can bag the 'carbon bad' arguments, because that ship has sailed, its a superior material.

[look 171]

Originally Posted by billybek

Was today's stage winner riding a Focus?
That was the first real mountain bike that I raced on. Tight rear triangle and steep angles on the seat and head tube. I loved that bike until I folded it up.
It was pink, but it was called burnt purple... Good job I had the lungs to back it up back then.

Funny about the pink bike. My first pro quality bike with full Campy Super Record was a used hot pearl pink Casati when I was 18. I raced and trainned on it for one season and crashed it on Christmas morning up on Mullholland. I was thinking about the same as you. You have to ride tempo to back up the color and the trash talking from the boys. My lungs had to defend the color every Wednesday and Saturday. I did get a 2nd place as a first year cat 4 rider that year on that bike. Saved up and bought another Casati after that. Just not a pink one. I still have that one today with all the battle scares just like the day it got put of retirement. I wish I still have the pink one.

[Zef]

Originally Posted by 924slover

i still use my old steel nishiki that my father bought at a yard sale and he fixed then when i worked at a bike shop i upgraded the brakes,bottom bracket, hubs,crank,handlebars,wheels, tires etc everything except the frame it looks like crap but I've put it up against other much more expensive bike's and it's faster and much more reliable.

and on the mtb side of things i still ride my fuji tahoe thats stock and it takes a beating like you wouldn't believe

Not surprisingly, you ride a 924 as well...