When did you know it was over in a relationship?

[the]

Originally Posted by Dueller

Thanks for your thoughtful and occasional acerbic replies.

I am at a cross road now. Although I have made many concessions regarding the stepdtrs and what I consider wife's overly permissive attitude by finally limiting my input to one or two basic house rules, my wife blatantly conspired (let's call it what it was...outright deceived me and lied) to cover up the breach of a non-negotiable rule by one of the stepdtrs.

I think we've gone through this before.

They aren't your daughters, PLUS (and this is a big factor), they are essentially adults now.

Why do you insist on intruding in their relationship? You're not their dad. Leave them alone, mind your own business and focus on the relationship with your wife.

[Heel n Toe]

Originally Posted by the

I think we've gone through this before.

They aren't your daughters, PLUS (and this is a big factor), they are essentially adults now.

Why do you insist on intruding in their relationship? You're not their dad. Leave them alone, mind your own business and focus on the relationship with your wife.

You are (also) missing the point and making irrelevant points.

[the]

How so?

[Dueller]

Moses...Unquestionably I owe an apology for my part of the tirade. But I absolutely have no raeson to apologize for my anger. I underrstand a mother's primal need to protect her children. When pressed wife concedes I love them and want to nuture and protect them almost as much as she does. Wife and other family members (including their deceased father's immediate family) recognize my compassion, kindness, generosity and love towards these kids. But they also acknowlege (including stepson) that wife's parenting decisions are often unhealthy when it comes to the girls. For a variety of reasons, she confuses being their friend and best buddy as more important than making appropriate parenting decisions.

The latter situation is the area I finally conceded to not get involved with. Wife and I made a mutual pact that I would extricate myself from those decisons in exchange for very limited rules that directly affect me and the quiet enjoyment of my home. The girls understand the boundaries and agreed to abide by them. Wife and I went out of town for 24 hours for a mini-getaway. One stepdtr blatantly abused the rules. Wife either gave her permission or upon finding out on our way home conspired to deceive me. As part of our above agreement, wife agreed to be honest with me. But for the fact that car trouble caused them to not be able to carry out their cover up, wife and stepdtr would have been ale to carry out their cover up.

While I may owe an apology for my outburst, wife must address her dishonesty. As I see it, its much like Watergate: A bungled third rate burglary was not nearly as serious as the cover-up.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by Dueller

Wife's delusional need to "protect" her children from being called on missteps is insane.

Watched my mother do it to some degree with my stepdad.

We had some real barn burners.

My brother and I were a lot younger than your girls and as we got older we did eventually "get it" and made efforts to tow the line.

Funny part is by the time my brother and I were no longer the issue my stepsister moved in and the folks had some role reversal.

Mom and stepdad have been together 30+ years now.

I credit him as much as my father, (on certain things more), with being the person I am today.

Don't recall if you have ever considered or sought outside counsel.

If you want to mend the fence you may want to find a counselor and put it on the table.

I truly do wish you the best of luck.

[Heel n Toe]

Originally Posted by the

How so?

He's not intruding on anything.

"Mind your own business"?

It is his business.

He has a few basic house rules and you know the rest of the story.

Hopefully his post right after yours has made things clearer and has shown you that he is in the right.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by Dueller

Moses...Unquestionably I owe an apology for my part of the tirade. But I absolutely have no raeson to apologize for my anger. I underrstand a mother's primal need to protect her children. When pressed wife concedes I love them and want to nuture and protect them almost as much as she does. Wife and other family members (including their deceased father's immediate family) recognize my compassion, kindness, generosity and love towards these kids. But they also acknowlege (including stepson) that wife's parenting decisions are often unhealthy when it comes to the girls. For a variety of reasons, she confuses being their friend and best buddy as more important than making appropriate parenting decisions.

The latter situation is the area I finally conceded to not get involved with. Wife and I made a mutual pact that I would extricate myself from those decisons in exchange for very limited rules that directly affect me and the quiet enjoyment of my home. The girls understand the boundaries and agreed to abide by them. Wife and I went out of town for 24 hours for a mini-getaway. One stepdtr blatantly abused the rules. Wife either gave her permission or upon finding out on our way home conspired to deceive me. As part of our above agreement, wife agreed to be honest with me. But for the fact that car trouble caused them to not be able to carry out their cover up, wife and stepdtr would have been ale to carry out their cover up.

While I may owe an apology for my outburst, wife must address her dishonesty. As I see it, its much like Watergate: A bungled third rate burglary was not nearly as serious as the cover-up.

You have every right to be angry.

How you convey that anger is the difference between possible resolution or escalation that makes the initial transgression pale in comparison.

Your outburst made it easier to deflect. It became about YOU and not your daughter.

Frankly sounds to me like she's a spoiled little ***** whose playing you and her mother against each other. To bad Mom can't see how she's allowing herself to be manipulated. BTW, she's manipulating you as well. She knows you'll lose it and if she gets caught it's a way out. She gets the two of you to "change the subject" Seems she's good at it to.

18 year old going into college still pulling this adolescent crap? Don't hold your breath that she will change her ways anytime soon.

[Dueller]

For perspective here are the basic rules that wife and I agreed on:

1. Ypu are welcome to have your friends over at anytime. Let us know if they are coming around dinner time, so we can throw an extrea steak on the grill for them.

2. Curfew is midnite on weekdays; 1 a.m. on weekends. If something's going on and you'll be late call us as soon as you know you'll be late. We do want to know where you are but barring a crack house we won't fiorbid you to go somewhere.

3. No more than 2 nites a week spending nite at BF's house. Let us know if that's your plan. BF's are NOT allowed to spend the nite at our house with you.

That's it. In exchange I agreed not to voice my disapproval of rule 3.

[the]

Yeah, the sentence below in his post does change things. Although it would be interesting to hear exactly what the rule, violation of the rule, and cover up was, to see how accurate the characterization of the rule is.

"The latter situation [parenting decisions] is the area I finally conceded to not get involved with. Wife and I made a mutual pact that I would extricate myself from those decisons in exchange for very limited rules that directly affect me and the quiet enjoyment of my home."

[Moses]

Originally Posted by Heel n Toe

"Interfere"? He said he had one or two basic house rules.

Yeah, but Dueller made the rules. It's pretty clear that mom would be more flexible with the girls if it was left to her.

These aren't little girls, they are young women. In a few weeks they are off to college. Is it worth torpedoing a good marriage over such a silly pissing contest?

[Joeaksa]

Also do not feel comfortable with the wife lying.... about anything. If a couple cannot tell the truth to each other, then its going downhill and fast IMHO.

Understand what Moses said about "mother and her cubs" but still, lying is not acceptable in my book.

[Heel n Toe]

BF probably stayed over while Jim and wife were gone. His car wouldn't start when he needed to leave 30 minutes before Jim's arrival, and he couldn't get a tow in time (or couldn't afford it).

Jim, I can't believe wifey thinks it's okay for daughters to have sleepovers at BF's houses. That's wacky... but then you probably agree.

[legion]

Originally Posted by Moses

Yeah, but Dueller made the rules. It's pretty clear that mom would be more flexible with the girls if it was left to her.

These aren't little girls, they are young women. In a few weeks they are off to college. Is it worth torpedoing a good marriage over such a silly pissing contest?

In my experience, this "permissive" style of parenting leads to kids who never leave home. At the very least the kids will be home during the summers and continue to break the rules. The more likely scenario is that they will move back in after college for at least another decade. Not enforcing the rules now will lead to much more misery.

[Heel n Toe]

Originally Posted by Moses

Yeah, but Dueller made the rules. It's pretty clear that mom would be more flexible with the girls if it was left to her.

But the wife agreed to the rules.

If she disagreed, or thought she would ever cover for them breaking any of them, she was wrong on that, too.

[the]

Originally Posted by Dueller

Wife and I went out of town for 24 hours for a mini-getaway. One stepdtr blatantly abused the rules. Wife either gave her permission or upon finding out on our way home conspired to deceive me. As part of our above agreement, wife agreed to be honest with me. But for the fact that car trouble caused them to not be able to carry out their cover up, wife and stepdtr would have been ale to carry out their cover up.

I could see the reason for the rule that the BFs can't spend the night at your house, I wouldn't allow that, either. I don't think most would. If they want to play grown up, they can buy/rent their own house, or get a hotel room.

But you were gone anyways. As long as they weren't doing it in your bed (big yuck on that), why not just let it go? I can certainly see you having the right to rules which affect YOU and YOUR "quiet enjoyment" of your house. But you weren't even home (I know, I know, it is still a technical violation of the "agreement").

Back to the title of your post, I think there is no way it is "over," this is a pretty minor, silly dispute IMO. Esp. since all of these "rules" and issues are moot in a few weeks. If your relationship can't handle something this minor, there are certainly many other issues involved here.

[Rikao4]

hold the horse..
Mommy needs to grow up..
having been part of D's adventures from afar..
I felt // KNEW this day would come...
D , I truly wish you the best...
but as I see it...
she see's her future with them...
you will always be last in this relationship....
even if you behave...best you will ever see / get..
is sloppy second..


Rika

[Dueller]

Originally Posted by Moses

Yeah, but Dueller made the rules. It's pretty clear that mom would be more flexible with the girls if it was left to her.

These aren't little girls, they are young women. In a few weeks they are off to college. Is it worth torpedoing a good marriage over such a silly pissing contest?

Moses, with all due respect WE made the rules. And I have made many more concessions and contributions to these kids than most stepdads.

This is not the first time mom has covered up/defended the kids/lied for them. And more often than not, I just let it go. Or calmly tell my wife I don't appreciate her dishonesty. It would be one thing if I were an uninvolved stepdad. But I have been explicitly called on to do a lot of heavy lifting for the benefit of the kids. Which I willingly and gladly do. From legal (all three have had minor scrapes with the law...if you call shoplifting or minor in possession or DUI controlled substance minor), to financial to educational to emotional. Even moreso recently with their birth father's death.

[the]

Originally Posted by Heel n Toe

But the wife agreed to the rules.

Again, these are rules which involve DUELLER's quiet enjoyment of his house, which I agree he is entitled to.

But this "violation" did nothing to affect Dueller. He wasn't even home. In this instance, it was a parenting issue, not "quiet enjoyment" issue.

[Moses]

Originally Posted by Heel n Toe

But the wife agreed to the rules.

If she disagreed, or thought she would ever cover for them breaking any of them, she was wrong on that, too.

She agree to rules that Jim insisted on. Agreements made under duress...

Jim can stomp his feet and pound his fists on the table. He was "right" and she was "wrong". Doesn't much matter. No one will hear him when he's all alone.

The problem with "my way or the highway" is that sometimes they choose the highway.

[the]

Originally Posted by Dueller

Moses, with all due respect WE made the rules. And I have made many more concessions and contributions to these kids than most stepdads.

This is not the first time mom has covered up/defended the kids/lied for them. And more often than not, I just let it go. Or calmly tell my wife I don't appreciate her dishonesty. It would be one thing if I were an uninvolved stepdad. But I have been explicitly called on to do a lot of heavy lifting for the benefit of the kids. Which I willingly and gladly do. From legal (all three have had minor scrapes with the law...if you call shoplifting or minor in possession or DUI controlled substance minor), to financial to educational to emotional. Even moreso recently with their birth father's death.

Seriously, what has been done has been done, it's over and can't be changed.

IMO as the man in this situation, you should take charge of getting things moving forward. Just let it go, it doesn't matter who was "right" or "wrong" (there's some blame for everyone her, but keeping score is a useless activity) the kids are gone in a few weeks, man it up and mend things up.