When did you know it was over in a relationship?

[Moses]

Originally Posted by Dueller

Nope. This is pretty much the only real source of friction despite my efforts to pull back.

Jim, this is not a good reason to end a marriage. The girls are 18. Let it go. They are financially independent and legal adults. Let it go.

It doesn't make any difference if you call your wife or if she calls you. This is too important for gradeschool games. If you love your wife and want the marriage to work then do what you need to do.

I understand your frustration completely. I don't think you're an ogre at all. You've invested yourself in these girls emotionally because you care. Hell, you went and fixed the drywall that your step-son ruined. Who does that? Someone who cares.

If you want to save your marriage then go do it.

[imcarthur]

Originally Posted by Moses

If you want to save your marriage then go do it.

Agreed. And do it now. Time is not your friend here.

Ian

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by imcarthur

Agreed. And do it now. Time is not your friend here.

Ian

Yeah.

[Rot 911]

Normally I would agree with Moses and the other posters that say call her now. But I see this as just another power play on the wife's part. He calls, she let's him talk her into coming back and she is left with a sense of victory, just like in the past.

Jim, if you call her. Call her not to ask her back, but have a plan to talk about. Call her and ask if she is willing to go to counseling for the both of you. Obviously the two of you can't fix this by yourselves.

[Dueller]

Originally Posted by Moses

Jim, this is not a good reason to end a marriage. The girls are 18. Let it go. They are financially independent and legal adults. Let it go.

It doesn't make any difference if you call your wife or if she calls you. This is too important for gradeschool games. If you love your wife and want the marriage to work then do what you need to do.

I understand your frustration completely. I don't think you're an ogre at all. You've invested yourself in these girls emotionally because you care. Hell, you went and fixed the drywall that your step-son ruined. Who does that? Someone who cares.

If you want to save your marriage then go do it.

I really think I do want to save it when all is said and done. If I throw out the olive branch and she doesn't accept it, then I was never worth enough in her eyes. And I have to accept that it is her issue, not mine, that is the final straw.

I think I'll send her a simple note:

There is one question we need to answer: Do we want this marriage to work? I know what my answer is to the question. Regardless of what your answer is, we need to talk.

[Moses]

Great idea.

[Oh Haha]

Originally Posted by kurt v

normally i would agree with moses and the other posters that say call her now. But i see this as just another power play on the wife's part. He calls, she let's him talk her into coming back and she is left with a sense of victory, just like in the past.

Jim, if you call her. Call her not to ask her back, but have a plan to talk about. Call her and ask if she is willing to go to counseling for the both of you. Obviously the two of you can't fix this by yourselves.

+ 1

[BeyGon]

Just thought I would throw in a little humor,
We split when I found out my first wife was banging her (married) gynecologist,
I thought about calling the wife but didn't.
Two weeks later in the morning edition of the paper an article about a guy killed in a crosswalk. It was him. I called my wife to tell her about it, just wanted to help,
It wasn't me, a bus hit him.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by Moses

Jim,

Respectfully, I think you may have crossed a line or two. Your wife felt compelled to deceive you because she has intense, primal loyalty to her girls. Her fierce devotion to her girls may not be rational, but it's very natural. It's the very same devotion and loyalty that would make her a wonderful wife.

Never, ever get between the mama bear and her cubs. Never.

If you value your marriage, you need to apologize. Profusely and sincerely. You also need to apologize to the girls. And promise never to interfere again. And DON'T.

You should not be put in legal or financial jeopardy because of the girls poor decision making, but pretty much every thing else is off the table.

Save your marriage and salvage a healthy relationship with the girls. I hope it's not too late.

To follow this advice is to surrender utterly.

Never.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by Dueller

For perspective here are the basic rules that wife and I agreed on:

1. Ypu are welcome to have your friends over at anytime. Let us know if they are coming around dinner time, so we can throw an extrea steak on the grill for them.

2. Curfew is midnite on weekdays; 1 a.m. on weekends. If something's going on and you'll be late call us as soon as you know you'll be late. We do want to know where you are but barring a crack house we won't fiorbid you to go somewhere.

3. No more than 2 nites a week spending nite at BF's house. Let us know if that's your plan. BF's are NOT allowed to spend the nite at our house with you.

That's it. In exchange I agreed not to voice my disapproval of rule 3.

Rule no. 3 is the dumbest thing I have ever heard of. If these girls just out of high school want to screw their brains out, how can you place quantity and location restrictions?

From what I've read here and on other threads, I think Mr. D is on the control freak side. These girls were 13 or so when you first met them and the mold was already cast.

I find it somewhat odd that Mr. D has posted as many pics of the girls as he has. I think there are some interesting issues at work here.

I agree with the theme that this mother is primarily involved with the girls. The fact that they are leaving, the fact that her ex just got killed are both working on her. This was not a time to play rule enforcer.

She lied, that's bad news.

It's hard to be alone in this world, but it's much harder to be in a relationship and still be alone.

I'll bet this marriage doesn't fly.

[red-beard]

Jim,

I call it like I see it. I'm not trying to make your mind up for you, but hopefully clarify a few things.

My wife and I got a long fine, sex was great (better than great!), we had lots of things we loved to do together and when we were alone, we were fine. What loused things up were, her drinking, her over-spending and her desire for love from her child by trying to be the "friend" instead of the parent.

There is a serious issue between your wife and her children. You have touched on it. She needs to be their parent and not their friend. YOU are doing the right things. But without backup, you are the "BAD GUY" and your wife is the "GOOD GUY". This is not a good situation for the step dad to be.

As far as the retarded comment, again, I believe parents set the rules not for peace and decorum, but to set the limits and to instruct. I can't believe that that your wife thinks this is OK. I had friends, back when I was in Massachusetts with above described wife, who didn't want to tell the kids not to smoke pot, since they did it in college. This is crazy. Just because you did something stupid doesn't mean you didn't learn that it was wrong. We all do. Allowing the minor children (and they really are, since they are not emancipated adults) to stay over night at a boyfriend's house, knowing that it is for sex, is telling the girls this type of behavior is acceptable. I know why you acquiesced. And I know that the rules that were set were WAY beyond the limits of what you find acceptable. And this is why you were truly outraged. You gave in and set the limit. And they still broke that. And then your wife tried to help cover it up. Did you wife know ahead of time? Maybe she had already given permission.

The first 2 rules are fine.

For you, an emotional outburst, under the circumstances, is an "I'm sorry for yelling" fixable offense. Compare that to lying and deception. These are not in the same league. What is your wife going to do to make it up to you for lying? "I'm sorry, I won't lie again", doesn't really cut it. This is why I am truly concerned. It isn't the first time. Consider that this may be part of the reason for the end of her first marriage.

OTOH, if you think you might have an anger problem, YOU HAVE AN ANGER PROBLEM! With or without your relationship, go get that fixed. Of course, I'm one to talk. Hmm. Pot, kettle calling. Maybe we can all get a discount for a group rate...

[jhynesrockmtn]

Counseling, counseling, counseling, first alone and then with her if she wants to save the marriage. From the sounds of it you may have some anger management issues and need some professional advice on how to play this from here. Best of luck to you.

I'm engaged to a wonderful woman. My children are older and she has one who is 10. Luckily the father is a decent guy and involved so I don't need to be the full time male parent.

She has very different ideas about how me and my kids relate. We won't live together until my youngest is in college which is about a year away. However, we are seeing a therapist to discuss this issue before we get hitched even though he'll be out of the house from a full time perspective relatively soon.

I've read many of your threads regarding the family. They have been through a lot lately with the death of their father and you handled that admirably.

Again, good luck and I hope this works out how you want.

[Moses]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

To follow this advice is to surrender utterly.

It's not supposed to be a war.

[the]

So many people say "counseling." (Must be a dozen in this thread alone).

Is this just because it's "the thing to say," or because you have personally had success with it in a situation like this?

I'm really curious. Those who have PERSONALLY had successful marriage counseling, tell us about it. By successful, I mean you were in a marriage that had real problems, went to counseling and became happily married for a significant amount of time (say, at least several years) because of it.

[the]

I ask because I know many people who went to "counseling" to save their marriage, and it worked exactly 0% of the time.

Also, I know a couple of marriage counselors. If my marriage depended on their help, there would be no hope, for sure.

[imcarthur]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

To follow this advice is to surrender utterly.

Marriage is not a battle. It is by definition - a compromise. A surrendering of each person's independence to a fulfilling mutually rewarding relationship together.

Re: counseling

When my marriage was spiraling, I found a female counselor. I booked the appointment. We went. My wife sat there & refused to talk & refused to ever go back again.

Ian

[jhynesrockmtn]

Is this just because it's "the thing to say," or because you have personally had success with it in a situation like this?

I'm really curious. Those who have PERSONALLY had successful marriage counseling, tell us about it. By successful, I mean you were in a marriage that had real problems, went to counseling and became happily married for a significant amount of time (say, at least several years) because of it.

I went and we didn't end up staying together. However, if we had wanted to do that it would have helped. Our issues were different and more basic. However, the counselor helped us work through whether or not we should stay together and how best to handle the separation, communication with the kids and how to best handle parenting together going forward while divorced.

I don't therefore say go to counseling just to save the marriage but to work through communication issues, whether the marriage is worth saving and if so, how to do so.

So yes, I make that recommendation having had experience. I also saw a therapist one on one later to help me deal with the end of the relationship and my own issues which were more related to my childhood, parents and self confidence. It took a while to find a good one though, the first one I saw was a lump and no help at all.

[ruf-porsche]

Originally Posted by Moses

It's not supposed to be a war.

With a name like M21sniper his life is one big conflict.

LOL

[the]

0 for 2 on PPOT so far.

I personally think "counseling" is more likely to hurt a relationship than help. Just IMO. Any 3rd person is always going to have an inaccurate and significantly incomplete view of the relationship. I credit my 20 year marriage in part to NOT going to counseling.

This sentence in post #158 is particularly troubling: "However, the counselor helped us work through whether or not we should stay together." IMO a third person should not be involved in that decision.

[Oh Haha]

My parents went to counseling and got through some difficult times. When my Dad passed away they had been married 47 years. I have witnessed the results, both good and not good. My own marriage counseling was a joke.

Will it work in every case? No, but I think a 3rd party professional can possibly get to the root of the problem which may not even be a relationship issue.

Again, BOTH or ALL parties need to be willing to listen and hear some truths that may not be so nice.