Can you fight city hall? (electric upgrade disaster)

[HardDrive]

It would take to long to describe the situation, but my wife and I are looking at a $10,000+ bill from the city of Seattle just so we can upgrade our electric panel. Our current installation is over 30 years old, so they won't let us touch it without replacing the entire run out to their 'hen hole'. To make matters worse, our electric service is underground, so it will require ripping the hell out of our front yard, plus another $5k at least to complete the upgrade.

What burns my shorts it that there is NOTHING wrong with our current electric cable, and it is more than big enough to support a new 200amp service panel. So we are going to be in $15k based on a rule. Well that pisses me off. This whole thing got started because some jerk at the city allowed the electric meter to be installed above a stairwell 30-40 years ago, ANOTHER violation of current code.

Long and short of it, is there any point in fighting this? Has anyone ever successfully had the city back off on a code requirement like this?

Were good for it, but not bloody happy about it.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

If you leave the existing panel alone there shouldn't be a problem. If you touch it or go trying to modify it, yes - they can (and usually do) require you to bring everything up to the current code. You might be able to ask for an exception - good luck.

If you're going to bother to upgrade (especially if you're planning on keeping the place), upgrade to 300A or 400A service now. The excess capacity you build in today means many more years before you have to go through this again.

[dad911]

Explain the problem, perhaps there is another way out. With Pics, if possible. Is it because the cable will be too short? For example, if that is the problem, perhaps you can replace it with a meter pan with disconnects, then the main panel is considered a sub-panel.

[HardDrive]

There is a photo of the current install below. The crux of the problem is that the meter base is only rated for 100amps. New meter base requires new meter. To put in a new meter requires involvement with Seattle City Light, our municipal utility. They are the ones forcing the issue.

We have suggested a number of different solutions to the utility, but their basic beef is that the cable is more than 30 years old, and thus needs to be replaced. What burns me is that the cable is large enough to support 200amp service. Were being asked to spend all this money based on a rule, not a technical need.

Other problems with current install:
-Meter is over a stairwell
-Meter is less than 5 feet off the ground (imagine stairwell is filled in)

One part of me says "Fight like hell!", but I don't see any cards in my hand. It just seems more pragmatic to suck it up and pay. Cost of a clean SC to upgrade my electric panel....WTF?!?!?!

[Red88Carrera]

Do YOU want to upgrade the service or are THEY telling you that you have to? What started this whole issue?

[Jeff Higgins]

Tell them you're Amish, so the new codes don't apply.

Wow, that stairwell looks like the one in which the kid in the German army uniform got shot. Pretty creepy.

[HardDrive]

Originally Posted by Red88Carrera

Do YOU want to upgrade the service or are THEY telling you that you have to? What started this whole issue?

What started the whole issue was a remodel. Our electrician had planned on switching out the panel to make room for new circuits. The current 100 amp panel is jammed. But an electrical inspector took a look at the meter base, and told him it was only rated for 100amps.

I suppose technically we want to upgrade, but at this point, we NEED to do it. We can't finish the remodel without it.

EDIT: We can't legally finish the remodel. *ahem*

[HardDrive]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Tell them you're Amish, so the new codes don't apply.

Wow, that stairwell looks like the one in which the kid in the German army uniform got shot. Pretty creepy.

Yeah, thanks Jeff. Just last week an elderly lady was nice enough to come over and tell me how much she loved the remodel. She also told me a lovely story about a women who hung herself in our garage in the 60s. Good times, good times.

[jyl]

You're sure about the $10K? If you could get it done for $5K it would be more palatable. Really have to dig up the front yard and sidewalk? Can they pull a new cable via the old? Even for a new main water supply line they don't dig up the yard. Anything else productive you can do at the same time (maybe need a new supply line)?

Come to think of it, exactly why won't the existing cable be okay? Is simply being 30 years old a valid reason? What about the cable, exactly, doesn't meet code?

Is digging up the yard and everything to lay a new cable (supposedly) the expensive part?

[nota]

are the existing wires in a conduit or duct
if so why rip them out
just use the old wires to pull in new ones
maybe one hole at base of up pipe to get around the 90 bend there


if no ducts
new teck directional drilling can do new ducts and wires
without tearing up the lawn

[red-beard]

What is the cable material?

[dad911]

Originally Posted by HardDrive

....Our electrician had planned on switching out the panel to make room for new circuits......

If you just need room, and not necessarily 'more amps', he can add a subpanel.

[carambola]

there is no way that meter socket can handle the heat of 200 amps without breaking down.
old bakelite isn't a good material

[john70t]

Originally Posted by red-beard

What is the cable material?

i.e.:Aluminum wire? Bad batch of cable insulation?

This may be "grandfathered in", but should be be done for your own protection. Having it "known" in paperwork and not doing something about it might lead to being denyed an insurance claim in case of an electrical house-fire.

The meter placement is probably not code, I'm suprised someone got away with it, and the city inspector let them.
-It may be the responsibility of the ultility company or the city to move it to a code-compliant location......
-Isn't the homeowner responsible for everything after the meter only?

I'd advise ponying up a few hundred for proffessional advice.
Mabye negotiations might be possible.

[RWebb]

same issue here in Eugene

how about a sub-panel?

find a good electrician and get them to think for you

also see if there is not some loophole in the Utility/City rules....

[berettafan]

In my town if this situation existed i'd be willing to bet dollars to donuts the town wasn't being honest about the requirements and who must do what (ie has town done something wrong?).

[idontknow]

Originally Posted by HardDrive

What started the whole issue was a remodel. Our electrician had planned on switching out the panel to make room for new circuits. The current 100 amp panel is jammed. But an electrical inspector took a look at the meter base, and told him it was only rated for 100amps.

I suppose technically we want to upgrade, but at this point, we NEED to do it. We can't finish the remodel without it.

EDIT: We can't legally finish the remodel. *ahem*

Upsize the panel to 42 spaces, downsize the main breaker back to 100amps.

As for the meter base location. Maybe what you need is a remote meter closer to the utility drop. You'll have to add a disconnecting means just after the meter but meter/main combos are available. It'd have to be attached to a permanent structure on the same property(may be different where you live) and your electrician would have to intercept the service conductors going to the utility pole. The old meter base can be replaced with a Jbox and the conductors can be spliced together.

[looneybin]

Originally Posted by john70t

-Isn't the homeowner responsible for everything after the meter only?

The utility is only responsible up to the weatherhead, from there to the meter usually is on the property owner, but that also depends on the utility co.

+1 on adding a sub panel if all you need is more space, but if you need a total panel change-out they can and will require the new panel to meet current code.

[island911]

I'm trying to understand. They want 10k to redo (upgrade/renew) the underground line?

[jabb]

Talk to the State inspector...... State usually can override local authority