God forbid anyone at a school would have to pass any sort of value judgment on the character of any particular students, even in the face of demonstrated behavior. That can be very detrimental to self esteem, you know.

That's exactly the kind of decision making "zero tolerance" is designed to excuse.

I don't

Of course such judgements must be within the discretion of the principal and teachers. They know who the trouble makers are, and who the cub scouts are too.

Common sense is becoming altogether too uncommon in our society, and this relentless drive to protect ourselves from everything is going to inevitably lead to a society of total pussies who are totally defenseless against street criminals, who have lost the skills of hunting and fieldcraft, and who are of marginal use to our military.

I submit to you that we don't need that.

Honestly, a boy scout with a knife poses absolutely zero threat to society.

I agree with you on most issues, almost overwhelmingly i'd say, but not here. Shrug. ;)

"Honestly, a boy scout with a knife poses absolutely zero threat to society."

I would have more confidence in the scout if he didn't have a knife in his possession. Who's to say what happens to the knife once brought to school?. Is it out of the question to think said student wouldn't show it to his peers? Would it be out of the question if the playground bully took it for a souvenir or the student to lose it on school grounds?

And if the now wayward knife becomes involved in a subsequent injury, what then? Guess who's responsible for bringing it on campus in the first place - a Cub Scout. And of the parent, who should know better, but who condoned it because he wanted his child to act like a man...... wonderful.

Why does this sound so much like foreign policy sabre-rattling some politicians love to wield? It seems many govts. do this to demonstrate their manhood by displaying large guns (cannons), rockets and missiles to intimidate potential adversaries. The phallic symbolism is not lost on those who practice psychology. And from foreign policy history, it doesn't work for long.

Sherwood

The next time i agree with you will be the first.

Snipe how about judgement belongs in the secerity of punishment but not in who may or may not carry a knife to school.

If the kid had a 'tactical folder' or switchblade or something i can see why some people would be concerned, but he had a swiss army thingy.

A cub scout with a swiss army knife.....the horror.

I did a little digging, and found info that surprised me. And does not support my view, I'd say.

The rate of violent assaults and homicides in US schools has actually declined over the past two decades.

I left the links at work, will try to remember to post tommorrow. But if you want to see the data, wiki "school violence" and that will lead you to some national crime data complied by the FBI. It is national data, so it doesn't show that the worst schools are getting better. But the average school appears to be safer now than before.

The first school massacre was in the early 1900s wasnt it? I remember seeing an article somewhere before that stated what you just did.

School violence is nothing new.

And the chances of that scenario playing out? Any kid would be more likely to be run over while walking to school by a driver talking on a cell phone than getting injured in that scenario.

That's the type of dumb a$$ thinking that has put things in the state of mess they are currently in. Its also why the folks in government that use this type of rational need to be voted out of office. Its incredible that they were ever elected in the first place.

Based on what study? If you have any meaningful statistics to support your theory, please share it with us. From your comments, I can assume you see no negative issues from bringing a knife to school, in particular an elementary school.

I suspect many here have little experience in the public school environment other than having attended some years ago.

Sherwood

It was a guess but a 20 second search turned this up:
Statistics Top 10*-*Causes of Death Kids
Probably could did deeper and find more but from this one looks like traffic is #2 and cut/pierce is # last.

Here's another - I didn't look but you could check it out if you want. http://www.legalpad.com/2009/09/accidents_leading_cause_of_dea.html

Leading Causes of Death - Kids
Leading causes of death in the United States - kids
The top two causes, Unintentional injury (accidents), Malignant Neoplasms (cancer), and Congenital Anomalies (abnormality at birth) accounted for more than half (63.35 percent) of all deaths among kids (ages 5 through 9) in 2002. Note that automobile accident is the number one cause of death in this age group, accounting for about 21%.
Top 20 Causes of Death - Kids (5 - 9)

Rank Cause of Death Total Deaths No of Deaths Percent
All Deaths 3018 3018 100.00%
1 Unintentional Injury 1176 38.97%
* Mohor Vehicle Traffic 621 20.58%
* Drowning 159 5.27%
* Fire/burn 153 5.07%
* Suffocation 40 1.33%
* Other Land Transport 33 1.09%
* Pedestrian, Other 27 0.89%
* Struck by or Against 20 0.66%
* Unspecified 20 0.66%
* Fall 18 0.60%
* Other Spec., classifiable 17 0.56%
* Poisoning 15 0.50%
* Firearm 14 0.46%
* Other Transport 12 0.40%
* Other Spec., NEC 8 0.27%
* Natural/ Environment 7 0.23%
* Machinery 6 0.20%
* Pedal cyclist, Other 4 0.13%
* Cut/pierce 2 0.07%


As for experience - I attended myself as did my wife, my mother taught English for almost 50 years and I raised 3 who were in the public school system and now I have 7 grand kids in public school - so I have some experience and have been around it.

And you??

No, I don't have a problem with any school kid having a pocket knife at school - let alone a device that apparently unfolds into eating utensils as was described in the original post.

Perhaps the cut/pierce stats you display (0.07%) are the result of policies prohibiting them in school? Ya think? How about digging deeper and show some stats when there weren't any prohibitions bringing weapons to school.

As for my experience, I have three kids, all went through public schools (the last is a freshman in HS). I taught high school for 7 years, but that was years ago, so I'm aware of the issues when they were minor compared to today. I'm not sure being a school parent provides a thorough view of what happens on a daily basis with other students.

If you want to use those stats you posted, the death rate due to firearms (0.46%) is but a fraction of deaths due to motor vehicle injuries (20.58%). One could make the argument that since firearms aren't anywhere near a leading cause of death, they should be allowed. Does that parallel your theory about the possession of sharp and pointy objects?

The second link you provided is fairly weak in statistical validity; a personal injury law firm describes child fatalities in San Diego, all 25 of them, from infants to 15 years, and w/o any relationship to school. I believe the subject was kids in school and knives being a great idea.

Sherwood

Now the lunatics are running the asylum.

Sherwood's opinions are pretty mainstream in the US, think about that and you won't be quite so surprised. He may have a point though, that unintentional injury thing on that list is from pocket knives, no doubt about it

I'm still waiting to hear why kids need to bring knives to school.

Fwiw the majority of 'incidents' in schools (and just outside of school) are kept out of public view.

I base this on the stories I've heard from my wife the teacher over the years but I think most any teacher / administrator would agree.

The significance of this is that you can't understand what school environments are like just from reading news reports and statistical reports.

Hey ill bet a pocket knife wouldve resolved that school bus beating that recently made natl news.

If nothing else we'd know who the future 'men' on the bus were.



Can ya tell I'm not getting any sleep? We have a newborn and my clock is all effed up.

If we don't like the zero tolerance policies, there is something we can do. We can use our vote for the school board or even run for the school board ourselves.

It is extreme to get a boy to be suspended for having a knife in a survival kit in his vehicle. We think he would do no harm to the our kids there. The same thing happened to a boy in our town that had a knife in a tackle box.

But what about the black thug, wearing gang getup, who is always in some kind of trouble with a Glock & AK in his trunk? That has a potential for kids being harmed.

If it was OK for a white boy to have a knife in a tackle box but the black kid got suspended, Jesse Jackson, etc would be disrupting the school & whole town for the next two months.

That is the reason for zero tolerance.

Here's a link to the data I mentioned

Indicators of School Crime and Safety: 2008 - List of Tables

and another, w/ charts

http://youthviolence.edschool.virginia.edu/violence-in-schools/national-statistics.html

There is no "need". Just as there is no "need" for you to own your Porsche, or a host of other things in your life. There is no "need" for much of what fills my life, either. The day we have to start justifying our "need" of anything to one another is the day we have well and truly lost it. This is my decision to be made for myself, and your decision tyo be made for yourself. Neither one of us has a say in what the other "needs" or does not "need"; neither one of us should have to justify that to the other.