Have you ever accepted a counter offer? (long)

[HardDrive]

Originally Posted by masraum

I've gotta assume it was CCIE - Security. Mike's pretty sharp, but that's a tough one.

I was wondering myself.

I was going to offer to help, but if its the CCIE.....yer on your own son!

[masraum]

Originally Posted by jyl

I would go to the new place.
1. You accepted the offer, so your reputation is involved.
2. It is more money, you want to keep moving up the pay scale.
3. You don't really know what the new place is like or what the old place will turn into.
4. You have no job security at either place. Paying for some certifications is not security.

Other factors: How long have you been at the old place, is it "time for a change"? Is the new place doing well/badly, growing/shrinking?

Maybe it is just me, but I personally would not let the following stuff drive my decision. You're trying to get ahead in your career, not work from home.

*Flexibility - I can work from home quite a bit
*Great benefits at reasonable prices
*Family friendly company
*Job enhancing training
*Short work week
*Generous holiday schedule
*discounts on products (which is very good for me)

I'm not even sure I'd let a 5 min vs 1 hour commute drive my decision. >1 hour, yeah.

Hmm, those can be big factors. For some folks, work/job/career is all about the money, completely about the $$$. For me, that's certainly at the top of the list, but there are other factors as well. Several of these can get extra priority if you have small kids. I don't, but lots of people do.

"Flexibility, working from home" -- For some, especially those with small kids and/or a working partner, this could be huge. For me, it's way down the list.
"Great benefits at reasonable prices" -- This is a big deal and can mean a big difference in your bottom line. I once got a job offer for a company that was $20k more than my current salary. The new place had no 401k matching, and very expensive insurance. The old place had decent 401k matching, plus a free cell phone and free broadband at the house. All in all, the net after subtracting the insurance from the new place, and adding in the perks from the old place made the move a wash financially.

"Family friendly company" -- Again, especially for folks with small kids, this can be huge.

"Job enhancing training" -- This can be the equivalent of $3-10k a year

"Short Work Week" -- This sounds really good. I'd love to work 4-10s. And, again, for folks with families, especially little kids, this could be huge.

"Generous Holiday schedule" -- Yeah, again, this would be great. If a job prospect was good and had 15 or 20 days of holidays a year, that would be a huge perk. Again, probably a huge deal for people with little kids.

"discounts on products" -- This could affect the bottom line. How much are you likely to buy, and how much will you save? It may not matter at all, or it could add up to a bunch.

5min commute vs 1hr. Wow, that's huge. That means that your day is now 24 - 8 for sleep, -11 (minimum) for work, and then probably another 1hr to get up and get ready for work in the morning. That leaves you with 4hrs a day that are your own. Or, if your commute is 5 minutes, your you time would be almost 6hrs a day. That's a huge difference. Over the course of a year thats around 500 hours, that's 20 days. That's a lot of time to be living life compared to being stuck in traffic.

Yes, my primary driving factor right now is $$$. But a crappy commute would make a $10k raise seem like no raise at all.

[jyl]

Assume 100 miles/day at 20mpg at $3/gal that is $15/day, 250 working days/yr, that is $2750/yr. Maybe $1200/yr parking?

Then there's extra 25K miles/year on the car, how to value that is tricky. If you say its a $30K car and call 25K one year's wear and tear, maybe $30K/8 = $3750/yr?

So maybe $7700/yr?

[TechnoViking]

Originally Posted by jyl

Assume 100 miles/day at 20mpg at $3/gal that is $15/day, 250 working days/yr, that is $2750/yr. Maybe $1200/yr parking?

Then there's extra 25K miles/year on the car, how to value that is tricky. If you say its a $30K car and call 25K one year's wear and tear, maybe $30K/8 = $3750/yr?

So maybe $7700/yr?

Factor in another $3k in therapy sessions to deal with your road rage

[TechnoViking]

I'm sorry but I just HATE a commute. What about the opportunity cost? What else would you be doing with 250 days * 2 hours = 500 hours per year?

You could rebuild a couple Porsche engines with that time! Or learn a language...or hit the gym for 2 hours a day. Ha. You'd be buff, baby.

Got kids? What about time with them?

[masraum]

Originally Posted by Martin Smith

Got kids? What about time with them?

For a lot of folks on this board, that's probably a big one. Anyone with kids younger that 12, or maybe even a little older probably values family time A LOT.

[mikester]

The certificate I failed was the CCIE Routing and Switching not security. My intentions are to think about a second CCIE when it comes time for me to re-certify the first (every 2 years). It was frustrating when I tried recently and I can go into more detail on it for those who care outside of this thread if you like. I haven't given up.

Regarding the commute - I've done long commutes. They are workable but I have two very young kids. With working 5 minutes from home I am able to spend nearly 75% more time with them than I would with an hour commute. With an hour commute I would miss the morning and get home just in time to put them to bed. Plus I'm on call for my position, I get called often enough for it to be a burden so that takes time away from my family as well. That time is important to me.

The current company is very generous with family time and general 'work-life balance', I have a complete home office network connection with IP phone and all. The new boss is of the opinion (and he has expressed it) that if I am not within arms reach of him then I am not working.

I'm actually surprised that so many of you said it was okay for me to stay. I'm a boy scout - I don't like going back on my word but as many have pointed out the business would not hesitate to let me go. I've witnessed it here already with folks who I felt were in the same class of employee as I feel I am. Those hurt - badly.



The counter offer this morning wasn't quite what I asked for but it was more AND less.

Why does HR have to make things more complicated...what I asked for was simple. what the came back with was actually more upfront but the long term $$$ are based on 'promise of promotion at the end of the year if my performance warrants it'. Now I can work with that because they do have pretty good performance review processes but if things don't go my way then again we will be in the situation where I am at the very least irritated. they are willing to put the 'promise' in writing but the way it is written means if my performance does not warrant it - somehow they could say no.


pffft. Irritating.

[jyl]

Originally Posted by masraum

For a lot of folks on this board, that's probably a big one. Anyone with kids younger that 12, or maybe even a little older probably values family time A LOT.

Being downsized leads to a lot of family time too . . .

I figure if your wife stays at home the kids are getting lots of time, it'd be great if dad could be home a lot too but the career comes first. I guess I'm just a bad dad.

Seriously, when my kids were young (<5 y/o) I worked 12 hrs/day and traveled 30% of the time. Now the kids are 10 and 14 y/o and I work 12 hrs/day but travel <10% of the time. It hasn't hurt our kids nor our relationship. But my wife did have to give up her career.

Dunno, sounds like the ideal would be to find a job that pays more and is near home, so maybe the question is, which of these jobs is the best to hold until you do find that ideal job? Remember that your current salary often sets a baseline for the next salary.

[nostatic]

There are no guarantees in the workplace. "Job security" is a fallacy, and in fact "security" in general is a pipe dream. The sooner you accept that, the easier it will be to make an informed decision imho.

[red-beard]

In this economy, I would be more worried about long term employment (job security) than anything else. Take the job which offers the most security. You have not started the new job. You can still pull out. Look out for yourself.

[nostatic]

Originally Posted by mikester

The current company is very generous with family time and general 'work-life balance', I have a complete home office network connection with IP phone and all. The new boss is of the opinion (and he has expressed it) that if I am not within arms reach of him then I am not working.

Were I in your shoes, I wouldn't go to the new place. While I hate to go back on an agreement, this would be a deal-killer for me. My boss currently knows that I'm working no matter where I am and has no need for me to be in his proximity. If someone values face time more than productivity, I don't want to work for/with them.

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by nostatic

There are no guarantees in the workplace. "Job security" is a fallacy, and in fact "security" in general is a pipe dream. The sooner you accept that, the easier it will be to make an informed decision imho.

Completely agree with this. Nothing is like it used to be. DO what will be best for you, and don't worry about the hurt feelings. This is BUSINESS.

[jyl]

The new boss is of the opinion (and he has expressed it) that if I am not within arms reach of him then I am not working.

Just saw this. Hmm. I don't like that. Not in the long run.

[mikester]

Originally Posted by jyl

The new boss is of the opinion (and he has expressed it) that if I am not within arms reach of him then I am not working.

Just saw this. Hmm. I don't like that. Not in the long run.

I don't and didn't like it either. I have been in the situation before and been able to turn it completely around into something that was near awesome - twice. My gut tells me that this situation might be different.

I'm starting to regret even accepting the offer - I 'accepted' a lot of things that I simply wouldn't have normally done in a normal economy/job situation. I think the impact of this outsourcing deal and some other factors really compromised my ability to think clearly on it.

While what I told them it would take for a successful counter (I did not ask for a counter offer) - they came back with a complex package. I do think it all adds up though it's just one bit that could bite me - the promise of a promotion. I've been promised promotions a few times - where I am currently I was promised one within 6 months of starting and it never happened. So...I told the manager that - I don't want to be pissed off going into 2011...

He said it would be dependent on my getting the certs I am working toward anyway so as long as it is in writing - I guess that's the best I can get outside of actually getting it.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by mikester

The new boss is of the opinion (and he has expressed it) that if I am not within arms reach of him then I am not working.

That would have been a deal breaker for me from the get go. I've worked for people like that. If you truly want to understand misery then go for it.

[masraum]

Yeah, it sounds like the new job has the possibility of being unpleasant to say the least. Based on what I've read, unless money is really tight right now and you REALLY need the extra money from the new place, I'd probably want to stay. It does suck to say one thing and then back out of it, but then, these aren't the olden days. It's all about the bottom line for them. The people rarely matter.

It's too bad that the old job didn't come through with what you wanted. You can always try to counter their counter to see if they can sweeten it a bit. As far as I'm concerned, the promise of "we'll give you more money someday" is meaningless. Besides, when you get your CCIE (when not if, I've got confidence in you) you'll be able to go where you want.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by jyl

Being downsized leads to a lot of family time too . . .

I figure if your wife stays at home the kids are getting lots of time, it'd be great if dad could be home a lot too but the career comes first. I guess I'm just a bad dad.

Seriously, when my kids were young (<5 y/o) I worked 12 hrs/day and traveled 30% of the time. Now the kids are 10 and 14 y/o and I work 12 hrs/day but travel <10% of the time. It hasn't hurt our kids nor our relationship. But my wife did have to give up her career.

Dunno, sounds like the ideal would be to find a job that pays more and is near home, so maybe the question is, which of these jobs is the best to hold until you do find that ideal job? Remember that your current salary often sets a baseline for the next salary.

Some people are ok with it, some aren't. I can't say because I've never had a little one of my own.

I didn't say anything about spending or not spending time with the kids making anyone a good or bad parent. But I do know from a lot of my friends that have little kids, that lots of people find time with the kids VERY important.

[Rick Lee]

My boss has a two hour commute each way, but feels like he has to be in the office. His attitude is that, if he can do it, then no one who lives closer than he does has any room to complain about the commute and work from home. Though the job is totally doable from home. I got around that by moving to Phoenix, where we have no office. Never been happier and haven't seen the boss for almost two years.

[Dottore]

Originally Posted by Gogar

I have nothing to offer really except to say that seems like a lot of work just for work.

Spoken like a true musician.

[DanielDudley]

I accepted a counter offer a number of years ago, staying with the devil I knew. I found out later that it was the right decision - for me.

Trust your gut.