Toyota unintended acceleration and recalls, Part 2

[TGTIW]

It certainly does highlight just how little driver training there is in the US.

[onewhippedpuppy]

More tech = more to break. Again why I love my simple Land Cruiser. I've never felt that the action of using a key was cumbersome. Though I would like keyless entry......

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by legion

Which is why I don't think the problem is actually with the accelerator pedal.

Though this does have the makings of another Firestone debacle...

Wrong. Firestone denied and fought and covered up. Toyota is doing the exact opposite.
There have been 19 deaths, and ALL of them were due to people not putting their floor mats in correctly and the FLOOR mats caused the accelerator to stick.
During that investigation Toyota uncovered a different problem, one that is very rare but dangerous. It is a problem with the design of the gas pedal made by the Mackenzie brothers. Too much moose-head or something.

Toyota is working to re-design the pedals and announced that they have come up with a solution and have submitted it to NHTSA for approval.

See, that is called being proactive. That is called doing the right thing.
What I don't understand is the tendency of some to try and exaggerate the situation and say ridiculous crap like toyota doesn't make good cars anymore. Hogwash.

To those of you who have suddenly taken on a mob mentality, go take a look in the freaking mirror.
Toyota doesn't make good cars anymore, BS. Someone doesn't know what he's talking about.

[legion]

Sammy, you are dead wrong about the Firestone thing. I know some of the players involved, and the story told in the media doesn't really reflect the actual events.

And in this case, Toyota appears to be covering up a bug in their drive-by-wire software by blaming it on a supplier. A stuck pedal will not cause a car to accelerate, it will cause a car to maintain speed. And I've never seen a floor mat hold down a pedal, but I have seen one prevent a pedal from being pressed down.

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

I would never buy a non-American truck. American trucks kick butt, there's just no reason to buy foreign.

That's the protectionist in me, but seriously, F-150's are great trucks. So are Dodge Rams, and so have been many past Chebys and GMC's.

Of course, to each his own.

That's funny.
I used to have a 1995 chebby silverado. It was made in CANADA with mexican parts. Eh?
Now I drive a tundra, made in SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS, in the United States of America. Built by American workers. LOL.

When it had about 5000 miles on it some turd changed lanes into it and creased the fender and bumper.
While it was in the shop they gave me a brand new silverado to drive for a week.

It was a POS compared to the Toyota. Cheap plastic all over the place that felt like it was gonna snap off when you touched it, and it liked to change lanes when you hit a decent sized bump or dip.
The seats are crap, i didn't like the brakes at all, and the turning radius was a half mile.
My buddy I car pool with has a silverado, I hate riding in that thing. The seat is designed all wrong, there's no way to get comfortable in it.

I haven't driven a ford since the late 80's when I traded in the third ford lemon i had owned. Everyone was a POS, the last one (a ford ranger) didn't make it to 60,000 miles before i had to dump it. It was tow-truck bait and had been in the shop 4 times, 3 of them were for major work.
And every time the dealer tried to screw me over and not honor the warranty.
It's be a cold day in hell before I own another ford POS.

Do the dodge trucks still come stock with a spare water pump, AC compressor, and alternator just in case?

[1990C4S]

Originally Posted by legion

And in this case, Toyota appears to be covering up a bug in their drive-by-wire software by blaming it on a supplier.

My understanding was that Toyota has not blamed the supplier, and that Toyota admitted the parts were properly built to Toyota's design.

Toyota Motor Engineering & Manufacturing North America (TEMA) has also been working closely with our pedal supplier CTS on a revised design that effectively remedies the problem. These pedals are now in full production at CTS to support Toyota’s needs. At the same time, we continue to work with CTS to test effective pedal modifications for existing vehicles on the road that will be available to our customers as quickly as possible.

I read this as an admission that the design needs to be changed, if CTS were at fault this paragraph would have referred to manufacturing procedures or QA changes implemented to prevent a re-occurrence. But, there still may be a software issue on top of the CTS hardware issue.

It is interesting that Toyota appears to be working with their supplier, when the 'typical' automotive response would have been a lawsuit against the supplier.

[RNajarian]

I have a patient who is a Master Certified Toyota Mechanic. He told me a month before the recall the company was making plans to not only change the pedal cluster but the ECU software.

He said the company will make the dealers absorb a significant portion of repair costs and the techs will in turn get the shaft from the dealers by not being allowed to charge full book time for their labor.

I find it interesting that despite his strong affiliation with Toyota he drives a Ford F150, his wife a Lincoln and his kid a Sebring.

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by legion

Sammy, you are dead wrong about the Firestone thing. I know some of the players involved, and the story told in the media doesn't really reflect the actual events.

And in this case, Toyota appears to be covering up a bug in their drive-by-wire software by blaming it on a supplier. A stuck pedal will not cause a car to accelerate, it will cause a car to maintain speed. And I've never seen a floor mat hold down a pedal, but I have seen one prevent a pedal from being pressed down.

Uh huh, so all the denials and finger-pointing between ford and firestone was just my imagination?
The fact that they blamed the owners for driving with the tires under inflated and that caused the tread separation didn't really happen?
They don't officially still say there wasn't anything wrong with the tires?
They didn't refuse to do a recall until the federal government was deep into the investigation?
The federal government didn't start investigating the deaths in May of 2000 and firestone didn't drag their feet and finally agree to supply the requested information in July after a great deal of legal wrangling, and didn't agree to the forced recall until August?

IIRC they called it a voluntary recall but there wasn't anything voluntary about it.
Even in the "voluntary" recall they still denied there was anything wrong with their tires. It was the consumer's fault for not keeping enough air in the tires.
That's what they still say.
I wonder why consumers would run firestone tires under-inflated but didn't do that with any other manufacturer's tires?

Bridgestone/Firestone Announces Voluntary Recall of 3.85 million RADIAL ATX and RADIAL ATX II Tires, and 2.7 million Wilderness AT Tires
Company urges all drivers to maintain proper inflation in their tires.

WASHINGTON, DC, Aug. 9, 2000 -- Saying the safety of consumers is the company’s first concern, today Bridgestone/Firestone, Inc., announced a voluntary recall of all Firestone Radial ATX and Radial ATX II tires in size P235/75R15 produced in North America, including Mexico, and Wilderness AT tires in size P235/75R15 produced at the Decatur, Illinois plant. The recall includes original equipment and replacement tires of that size, regardless of the vehicle’s manufacturer. Vehicle owners will be notified of the recall by mail. Bridgestone/Firestone will replace all of these tires with brand new Wilderness AT or other Bridgestone/Firestone tires. If necessary, the company will obtain other sources of supply.

The recall was announced by Gary Crigger, Executive Vice President of Bridgestone/Firestone Inc., at a Washington, DC, news conference. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration is currently conducting a preliminary evaluation of the tires in response to questions relating to failures of these tires. The company is not limiting the recall. There have been approximately 14.4 million of these tires produced. The company estimates that the number of tires still in use and involved in the recall is 6.5 million, which includes 3.8 million Radial ATX and ATX II tires and 2.7 million Wilderness AT tires.

"At Bridgestone/Firestone, nothing is more important to us than the safety of our customers," said Crigger. "We felt we must take this extraordinary step as a precaution to ensure consumer safety and consumer confidence in our brands. So, no matter how old the tires, no matter how many miles they have on them, we will replace them with new tires."

Crigger said, "Throughout this process, we have been working very closely with Ford Motor Company and NHTSA to determine the cause of the accidents involving vehicles with these tires. While we have not determined what, if any, problem there may be with these tires, our review of the data suggests three things."

Although noting that accidents involving these tires are rare in comparison to the millions of tires produced, he said that the data shows:

1. The number of reported incidents with the P235/75R15 Radial ATX and ATX II is higher than with other sizes in this line;
2. The Decatur, Illinois plant is over-represented in the accident claims and reports compared with other plants;
3. The majority of the incidents are in the southern-most states of Arizona, California, Florida and Texas, which suggests there may be a direct correlation between heat and tire performance.

"In addition," Crigger said, "the abundance of concern surrounding these tires clearly indicates the need for this action."

The company also urged all consumers to take additional steps to increase the lifespan and safety of their tires, by maintaining proper inflation.

"When under inflated, all radial tires generate excessive heat," Crigger said. "Driving on tires in this condition can lead to tread separation. Maintaining the proper inflation level will enhance the performance and lifespan of these tires."

For the owners of the P235/75R15 size tires in the ATX, ATX II produced in North America, including Mexico, and Wilderness AT tires produced at the Decatur, Illinois plant:

* Customers who have a recalled tire will receive a letter from the company notifying them of the recall and the steps they need to take. Customers who need assistance should call the toll-free customer service number at 1-800-465-1904 or click here to find the location of the nearest Firestone Authorized Service Center.

* Those who have a recalled tire should call their nearest local Firestone retailer to set up an appointment for an exchange. Because the preponderance of incidents is in the four southern states and given the limited supply of replacement tires at this time, the company will be undertaking a three phase recall starting in Arizona, California, Florida and Texas. The second phase for the recall will be implemented in Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, Mississippi, Nevada, Oklahoma and Tennessee. The final phase will include the remainder of the states.

* Keep non-Ford vehicles with Wilderness AT tires at the pressure recommended by the vehicle manufacturer.

* All vehicle owners using Wilderness tires should keep their tires inflated at the pressure recommended by the vehicle manufacturer. For owners of Ford Explorers (exploders) or Mercury Mountaineers, with P235/75R15 ATX and Wilderness AT tires on their vehicles, Ford recommends these tires be maintained at a minimum of 26 psi. at the request of Firestone, Ford has evaluated the performance of these tires at 30 psi and has determined that the vehicles maintain good performance characteristics at this higher pressure. Ford recommends a tire pressure range of 26-30 psi. Firestone recommends a tire pressure of 30 psi.

Consistent with the company’s long-standing policy of commitment to customer satisfaction and service, all Wilderness tire owners were urged to contact their nearest company-owned service center for a free inspection.

"We will inspect each customer’s tires for damage or excessive wear, while checking to make sure the tires are inflated to the level specified by the vehicle's manufacturer," said Crigger.

Crigger reiterated that these steps were being taken to protect consumer safety and satisfaction. "We extend our condolences to families that have lost loved ones in accidents. We also apologize to our customers for the inconvenience this recall causes and we ask for their patience," he said.

The Firestone tire recall is perhaps the most deadly auto safety crisis in American history. US regulators on 16 October, 2000 have raised the death count to 119 (the death count has steadily risen from 62, later to 88 and 101 deaths reported on 9/20/2000). Experts believe there may be as many as 250 deaths and more than 3000 catastrophic injuries associated with the defective tires. Most of the deaths occur in accidents involving the Ford Explorer (Exploder) which tends to rollover when one of the tires blows out.

In May 2000, the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration issued a letter to Ford and Firestone requesting information about the high incidence of tire failure on Ford Explorer vehicles. During July, Ford obtained and analyzed the data on tire failure. The data revealed that 15" ATX and ATX II models and Wilderness AT tires had very high failure rates: the tread peels off. Many of the tires were made at a Decatur, Illinois plant. Worse, when the tires fail the vehicle often rolls over and kills the occupants.

Ford Officials estimate the defect rate is 241 tires per million for 15-Inch ATX and ATX II tires. By contrast Ford says there are no defects in 16 Inch tires per million and only 2.3 incidents per million on other tires.

On August 9 both companies decided on the recall. Ford and Firestone disagreed as to how to break the news. Bridgestone/Firestone officials wanted to read a statement at a joint briefing without answering any questions. Ford strongly disagreed with this strategy and warned of disaster if they refused questions. Ultimately questions were asked, many of them remain unanswered.

[sammyg2]

Here's what the government said, as a comparison to what firestone said:

WASHINGTON — The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has announced the recall of 127,183 Firestone FR380 tires, size P235/75R15 because of a potential safety defect.

The tires were manufactured between September 2007 and July 2008, and were produced with insufficient tread base gauge. Continued use of those tires may lead to vibration and groove cracking, while extended use could lead to tread distortion or tread separation and a loss of vehicle control.

Firestone's parent company, Bridgestone, will notify owners and replace the tires free of charge.

Owners can call (800) 465-1904.

N.H.T.S.A. Firestone Tire Recall

Tire Brand Name / Tire Line / Tire Size: FIRESTONE / FR380 / P235/75R15

Production Dates: SEP 09, 2007 - JUL 02, 2008

Manufacturer: BRIDGESTONE/FIRESTONE NORTH AMERICA TIRE

Mfr's Report Date: JUN 25, 2009

NHTSA CAMPAIGN ID Number: 09T007000 N/A

NHTSA Action Number: N/A

Component: TIRES:TREAD/BELT

Potential Number of Units Affected: 127183

Summary:

BRIDGESTONE AMERICAS TIRE OPERATIONS, LLC (BATO) IS RECALLING 127,183 FIRESTONE FR380 TIRES, SIZE P235/75R15, MANUFACTURED FROM SEPTEMBER 9, 2007 THROUGH JULY 2, 2008. THESE TIRES WERE PRODUCED WITH INSUFFICIENT TREAD BASE GAUGE.

Consequence:

CONTINUED USE OF THE SUBJECT TIRES MAY LEAD TO VIBRATION AND GROOVE CRACKING. EXTENDED USE COULD LEAD TO TREAD DISTORTION OR TREAD SEPARATION AND LOSS OF VEHICLE CONTROL.

Remedy:

BATO WILL NOTIFY OWNERS AND REPLACE THE AFFECTED TIRES FREE OF CHARGE. BATO WILL ALSO MOUNT AND BALANCE THE REPLACEMENT TIRES, ALL AT NO CHARGE OR EXPENSE TO THE OWNER. THE SAFETY RECALL IS EXPECTED TO BEGIN ON OR ABOUT JUNE 29, 2009. OWNERS MAY CONTACT BATO TOLL-FREE AT 1-800-465-1904 OR VISIT THEIR WEBSITE AT Firestone Tire.

[The Gaijin]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

....

Toyota is working to re-design the pedals and announced that they have come up with a solution and have submitted it to NHTSA for approval.

See, that is called being proactive. That is called doing the right thing.
What I don't understand is the tendency of some to try and exaggerate the situation and say ridiculous crap like toyota doesn't make good cars anymore. Hogwash.

To those of you who have suddenly taken on a mob mentality, go take a look in the freaking mirror.
Toyota doesn't make good cars anymore, BS. Someone doesn't know what he's talking about.

Sammy Man: you are right.

The media loves a good man-bites-dog story. The disinformation is astounding. We all look at this a car guys. Imagine what Jane Q. Public thinks??

Then you have the lawyers lining up. Not just for claims for actual accidents - but "damages" and class action suits..

[legion]

The thing that was never stated publicly was that Ford specifically requested the thinner tires to keep the unsprung weight down and improve handling. Firestone had protested, but Ford threatened to pull their contract with Firestone if they did not comply. When the controversy errupted, Firestone had been told by Ford to blame the problems on the tires being underinflated and Ford would back them up. Firestone did as they were told, and Jacques Nassar double-crossed them and blamed them instead. Firestone then came out with the information that Ford had spec'ed the crappy tires, but no one was listening at that point as Firestone had been declared the bad guy.

Should Firestone have come out with the lame tire pressure excuse? No, but they did have Ford threatening them if they didn't. This whole episode also lead directly to Nassar being fired from Ford, as the board did not like his secretive and manipulative handling of the situation.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by TGTIW

Even if the brakes aren't enough to fully stop a car a WOT, the consumer reports video clearly shows they would still slow that car down enough to avoid a major accident.

Until they over heated and burst into flames like what happened to the cop.

[onewhippedpuppy]

I will say that I have personally had a floor mat jamb under the bottom edge of a gas pedal, not letting the accelerator return to idle. One swift kick fixed the problem.

[kaisen]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

Wrong. Firestone denied and fought and covered up. Toyota is doing the exact opposite.
There have been 19 deaths, and ALL of them were due to people not putting their floor mats in correctly and the FLOOR mats caused the accelerator to stick........ See, that is called being proactive. That is called doing the right thing.
What I don't understand is the tendency of some to try and exaggerate the situation and say ridiculous crap like toyota doesn't make good cars anymore. Hogwash....

There have been deaths AFTER Toyota told owners to remove the floor mats. In fact, there was recently a Toyota Avalon in Texas that ended up in a pond, upside down, all four occupants dead, floor mats still in the trunk. If you'd like more details, let me know.

Toyota covered up the problem, even (allegedly, but more details are forthcoming) bribing a NHTSA official by giving him a job paying three times 'normal' when these problems started surfacing several years ago. If you'd like more details, let me know.

Toyota has done nothing it was not legally obligated to do. Name one.

[legion]

Hmmmm....the Woz says it's a software problem:

Wozniak cites 'scary' Prius acceleration problem | Nanotech - The Circuits Blog - CNET News

More problems may be lurking for Toyota. Speaking at an event in San Francisco on Monday, Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak waxed eloquent about a "very scary" problem with his 2010 Toyota Prius.

"I don't get upset and teed off at things in life, except computers that don't work right," was his segue into the Toyota comments. Then he said he had been trying to get through to Toyota and the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration (NHTSA) for three months but could not get anyone to explore an alleged software-related acceleration problem--as described below.

"Toyota has this accelerator problem we've all heard about," Wozniak said. "Well, I have many models of Prius that got recalled, but I have a new model that didn't get recalled. This new model has an accelerator that goes wild but only under certain conditions of cruise control. And I can repeat it over and over and over again--safely."

"This is software. It's not a bad accelerator pedal. It's very scary, but luckily for me I can hit the brakes," he said.

Toyota said it investigates all complaints. "We're in the business of investigating complaints, assessing problems and finding remedies," said John Hanson, national manager environmental safety and quality communications at Toyota. "After man years of exhaustive testing we have not found any evidence of an electronic [software] problem that would have led to unwanted acceleration."

[berettafan]

the floor mat in my '06 tundra has a plastic hook mounted on the carpet that matches up to a hole in the floormat which then keeps it from sliding out of place. very nicely in fact.

[ramonesfreak]

a local guy with a tundra crashed last night and was just on the evening news. says the electrical system went crazy and truck took off forcing him to weave in and out of traffic and eventually off road into the woods knocking down trees

[TGTIW]

Great, so Toyota is using Windows Vista in their cars?

[kaisen]

Official: U.S. had to force Toyota into safety recall | freep.com | Detroit Free Press

WASHINGTON -- U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said today that it had taken "an enormous effort" to get Toyota to recall vehicles in the United States, and said federal regulators were not done with their investigations.

"Since questions were first raised about possible safety defects, we have been pushing Toyota to take measures to protect consumers," LaHood said in a statement. "While Toyota is taking responsible action now, it unfortunately took an enormous effort to get to this point."

"We're not finished with Toyota and are continuing to review possible defects and monitor the implementation of the recalls."

LaHood told the Associated Press in an interview that Toyota was "a little safety deaf." He said last week that the automaker would not have recalled its vehicles had federal safety officials not pushed for it.

Toyota's top U.S. official, Yoshibi Inaba, is set to testify at a congressional hearing Feb. 10. Toyota also faces another hearing from the investigation subcommittee headed by U.S. Rep. Bart Stupak, D-Menominee, on Feb. 25.

[kaisen]

Report: After NHTSA investigator hired by Toyota, serious unintended acceleration cases ignored — Autoblog

The more we learn about Toyota's rumored relationship with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, the less we like it. Remember the claim that the government agency may have known about unintended acceleration issues as early as 2004? ABC News does, and the news network has been doing its best Sherlock Holmes work in an effort to learn more about the potentially damaging claims.

The ABC News investigation revealed that NHTSA wrote a memorandum limiting unintended acceleration claims to episodes lasting two seconds or less when the brake was never applied. The report states that the memorandum came down after agency representative Scott Yon met with two former colleagues (including Chris Santucci) who left the government to work for Toyota. Santucci testified back in December that the limited scope of investigations "worked out well for both the agency and Toyota."

Also in question is whether federal safety investigators are included in a federal law that states that "an employee in the executive branch is barred for two years after leaving government service from representing any matter under the employee's previous official responsibility." Santucci left his job at NHTSA six months before he reportedly negotiated the terms of the investigation with his ex-colleagues.

According to ABC News, the limited scope of the investigations ruled out 26 of the original 37 claims of unintended acceleration. A reported 25 of those 26 incidents led to an accident or crash, and since those incidents were outside of the scope of the investigations, NHTSA never looked into the incidents. Sean Kane of Safety Research & Strategies told ABC News that the narrow scope of the investigation meant "NHTSA almost ensured they wouldn't have enough complaint data to take action."

The extremely limited and nonsensical scope of the investigations between 2004 and 2007 continually failed to show any failures, and Toyota routinely pointed that out when the subject was brought up even in the weeks that led to the original recall of 3.8 million floor mats in the fall of 2009. In fact, ABC News claims that a document provided by Toyota to NHTSA stated that the Japanese automaker would not even submit a report to the government "in which the customer alleged that they could not control a vehicle by applying the brake."