Toyota unintended acceleration and recalls, Part 2

[m21sniper]

Glenside isn't too far from here. It's a burb of Philly.

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

The Toyota doesn't allow you to take the car out of gear and the brakes are insufficient to stop it. When it sticks WOT, unless you hold the start button in for 3 seconds steady, you're dead.

In a car with manual mechanical controls you can shut the car off or just put it into neutral.

Again, these newer cars have lousy machine design. Everyting needs an OFF switch and why would you not make the brakes more powerful than the engine?

[smokintr6]

and why would you not make the brakes more powerful than the engine?

hahahahahah, co$t of course!

[dd74]

Originally Posted by HarryD

Again, these newer cars have lousy machine design. Everyting needs an OFF switch and why would you not make the brakes more powerful than the engine?

I understand the off switch and its uses. I just don't understand how the average driver will know to use it.

Don't get me wrong; the off switch is a good idea. But I think better driver training is an even better idea.

Alas, I don't think, though, that driver's training would have helped the driver of the family of four who were killed in their Lexus. To make matters more dire, I was told today the driver was a defensive driving instructor for the L.A. Sheriff.

At that point, the error was in the car's engineering. I mean, who would know the transmission won't shift into neutral if the car is above idle?

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by HarryD

Again, these newer cars have lousy machine design. Everyting needs an OFF switch and why would you not make the brakes more powerful than the engine?

Most performance cars (and in honestly virtually every car sold today is one) can easily overwhelm their brakes. Any car with any kind of guts can do a power-brake holeshot.

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by dd74

I understand the off switch and its uses. I just don't understand how the average driver will know to use it.

Don't get me wrong; the off switch is a good idea. But I think better driver training is an even better idea.

Alas, I don't think, though, that driver's training would have helped the driver of the family of four who were killed in their Lexus. To make matters more dire, I was told today the driver was a defensive driving instructor for the L.A. Sheriff.

At that point, the error was in the car's engineering. I mean, who would know the transmission won't shift into neutral if the car is above idle?

To my way of thinking, my car has two "off swotches", I can put the car in neutral stopping power input to the wheels and I can turn the switch to the off position.

In these computer controlled things, both actions are apparaently mediated by a control computer that has it's own logic. To my way of thinking either of these actions should bypass the computer and act dircetly onthe thing being asked to do the task.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Keyless ignition = "problem" that didn't need to be solved? Has anyone honestly ever complained about the damn heavy annoying key in their pocket? With no key, how do you get in when the battery dies? Engineers - just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

[kaisen]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Keyless ignition = "problem" that didn't need to be solved? Has anyone honestly ever complained about the damn heavy annoying key in their pocket? With no key, how do you get in when the battery dies? Engineers - just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

You are kidding, right? Do you know how awesome it is to not have to fumble for keys? Do you not have a wife whose keys are constantly somewhere at the bottom of her purse when you are in a hurry? Do you have several cars, or at least several keys you sort through when you get in or start your car? Leaving the fob in your pocket (or purse) and just lifting the door handle and then pressing a start button is fantastic.

When the battery dies most 'smart' systems have a physical key in the fob to gain access. The good ones also have an energizing 'ring' inside that can validate the fob's frequency to start the car even with a dead fob battery.

Toyota just uses different logic / programming to defeat their ignition stop/start that required the driver to depress the button for 3 seconds. Not all manufacturers share that requirement, as mentioned here.

Anyway, once you have a keyless system you'll wonder how you lived without it!

[m21sniper]

Tell me how awesome it is when you are plummeting to your death in a totally out of control car bro.

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by kaisen

You are kidding, right? Do you know how awesome it is to not have to fumble for keys? Do you not have a wife whose keys are constantly somewhere at the bottom of her purse when you are in a hurry? Do you have several cars, or at least several keys you sort through when you get in or start your car? Leaving the fob in your pocket (or purse) and just lifting the door handle and then pressing a start button is fantastic.

When the battery dies most 'smart' systems have a physical key in the fob to gain access. The good ones also have an energizing 'ring' inside that can validate the fob's frequency to start the car even with a dead fob battery.

Toyota just uses different logic / programming to defeat their ignition stop/start that required the driver to depress the button for 3 seconds. Not all manufacturers share that requirement, as mentioned here.

Anyway, once you have a keyless system you'll wonder how you lived without it!

Sorry chief, but I, for one, think that not every interaction in my life needs to be mediated by some "nanny" software to be sure I don't do the "wrong" thing.

FWIW, I have an engineering degree and hold a PE license. For my employers, I have always had a duty for ensure that the stuff built and used in my facility will not have unintended actions that may hurt or otherwise injure someone.

In a past life, my job included design of systems to use materials that can kill you before you knew what hit you. I have to designed, maintained, and done forensics when things failed. There is an incredible amount of design out there that fails to account for all failure modes. Sometimes, by trying to shield the operator from small problems, the design creates large ones that cannot be mitigated by the end user.

I find that many software people are not willing or able to debug their systems the way mechanical systems are debugged to ensure there are no preventible hazardous operating modes. They seem to prefer to wait for the failure and patch the code. For the "operating system" of a motor vehicle, this is a deadly approach.

FWIW: I find the On-star commericals very chilling due to the level of control the car owner has ceded to strangers.

[kaisen]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

Tell me how awesome it is when you are plummeting to your death in a totally out of control car bro.

Again, not all cars that are pushbutton stop/start share the failings of the Toyotas in question. Most will simply and immediately accept the command and shut down the engine.

It's just like the aforementioned differences in the gas pedal itself. I had a first-hand experience in late 2002 when GM switched to drive-by-wire on their 6.0L GMC 2500 PU. The logic / programming in that case looked at three sensors at the pedal. Two of the three sensors needed to 'agree' what needed to be done. If they did not, the default was to 'limp', only accepting up to 10% throttle even if the pedal was to the floor. It was a failsafe GM built in. The pedal failed and I had to 'limp' to the dealer at 20mph. Frustrating, but better than Toyota's alternative.

[m21sniper]

Yes, i would say so.

Toyota, it would appear, has mightily fked the pooch.

[notfarnow]

3:05 - the driver is able to put the Camry in neutral at WOT

[m21sniper]

So when are they going to recall ALL OF THEM for the faulty programming logic?

That's the really dangerous culprit here.

102 incidents with toyota's according to the above video.

[notfarnow]

another good one, with a Venza. Shows how inefective the brakes are after being pumped at WOT

Still, at WOT they put it in neutral:

[dd74]

While exiting the grocery store the other night, a woman exiting at the same time, pointed her key fob at an Escalade, turned on the vehicle's lights, started the engine, then unlocked the doors and raised the tailgate to load in her groceries.

Meanwhile, all I could do was unlock my own doors; forget about raising the tailgate or turning on the engine (presumably to start the heat - it was cold that night).

So yeah, while I'm not completely "down" with modern technology, I find retro grouches or those who refuse innovation to be rather...well...close-minded.

[Steve Carlton]

I've heard there have been a few isolated incidents of people being eaten by the rear ends of their Escalades...

[TGTIW]

Even if the brakes aren't enough to fully stop a car a WOT, the consumer reports video clearly shows they would still slow that car down enough to avoid a major accident.

[notfarnow]

Originally Posted by TGTIW

Even if the brakes aren't enough to fully stop a car a WOT, the consumer reports video clearly shows they would still slow that car down enough to avoid a major accident.

I dunno. I get the impression that if they relied on the brakes, the average driver would have one "kick at the can" before they lost the vacuum assist and found the pedal to hard to push. If they continued pressing, the brakes would overheat pretty fast and lose any effectiveness.

At first I thought this whole thing was a bit of hysteria, but yikes, it really does seem to be an issue. I don't get the impression Toyota really knows what the problem is either. Has anyone actually seen a dissassemble gas pedal, or even a diagram that clearly shows the issue? Service bulletins going back 5-6 years for "surging" doesn't instill much confidence either.

On the flip side, as scary as it is that the problem exists, it's even MORE frightening that drivers aren't just popping it into neutral. It seems so basic and instinctual, but try this:

I asked a 6 people yesterday if they'd know to throw it in neutral. 3 of them said they didn't know what "neutral" did. THAT is scary

On the upside, Toyota has *finally* made the corrola an exciting car to drive

[ramonesfreak]

this is a big problem for all of us, not just the driver of a broken toyota. imagine your on your motorcycle or car and a toyota loses control...i hope toyota solves this immediately. My 911 throttle stuck once in highway traffic and it was not pleasant. i avoided an accident but I cant imagine most people not panicking and crashing into you or me