What choice for first pistol?

[Turbo_pro]

Originally Posted by targa911S

.....snip.....

My personal choice would be a 1908 Colt hammerless in .380. You can find nice ones for $350. to $500. still and they won't be going down in price anytime soon. Nice slim all steel gun the will eat any type of ammo you stick in it. Goes bang every time and easy to conceal. My .02.
.....snip.......

I know where there is a band new one.....

[dd74]

Marine issue, huh? So it must be good.

How much do these go for now-a-days? What rounds do they take?

Excuse my ignorance, but honestly, break-ins are becoming too familiar a reality in my neighborhood, and it seems home protection will become a necessity.

Also, for spread shot, I've been looking at a Bernelli M4; also Marine issue.

[TGTIW]

Didn't the Marines also have a saying about the Beretta and the slide failures?
Something about not tasting Italian until you've shot a Beretta..

[berettafan]

For clarification purposes my screen name is based on a love for the company's shotguns. Have not fired any of their pistols.

[dd74]

Originally Posted by berettafan

For clarification purposes my screen name is based on a love for the company's shotguns. Have not fired any of their pistols.

How are their shotguns? I would be interested in a 12-gauge, short barrel.

[krystar]

beretta's slide jamming issues come from the fact that the slide's upper side is open. armed forces guys in middle east get sand everywhere.

I also own a P7 and a FEG PJK-9HP (which is a browning hipower replica). My first piece of advice is already on the first page. go try out guns. I tried beretta, glock, 1911. I could never shoot comfortably with any of them. i saw the FEG used for $200 at the gun store. picked it up,and it naturally conformed to my hand and aimed straight. bought it on the spot.

now the P7, i will agree with previous poster and say it's an AWESOME gun. 100% safe when loaded. I keep my P7 chambered. I only keep my FEG with a loaded magazine, unchambered.

this just an anecdote that i saw posted on another forum but it's a fun story. The P7 was presented at a Colt factory shoot in Wisconsin. You can imagine that everybody there is a 1911 hardhead. When presented with a 9mm compact pistol, they laughed and laughed. Then one of the competition shooters took the P7, unloaded entire magazine fast shooting at silhouette target at 50yards away. All the rounds landed center mass. The laughing quieted down real fast.

[targa911S]

Originally Posted by dd74

How are their shotguns? I would be interested in a 12-gauge, short barrel.

Some of the best. They are one of the oldest SXS makers in the world. 1st class. A short barreled Beretta? I don't think they make one. They pretty much make sporting guns.

[targa911S]

Originally Posted by Turbo_pro

I know where there is a band new one.....]

Yes and I'll bet that is an M series too. Me want.

[Talewinds]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

I would consider either a 1911 or especially a Glock to be a resoundingly BAD choice for a first hand spoon.
Beginner hand gun users do not belong anywhere near either.

And what wisdom can you impart to us "newbs" that would uphold that statement?
Lack of safeties on the Glock maybe? (I wouldn't consider a Glock anyway, ever.)
Single action, FTF/FTE issues on 1911's?

I just don't understand why anyone should be steered away from a 1911, especially if their caliber of choice is .45, which in my case, is my caliber of choice.

[Turbo_pro]

One more piece of advise.
Buy your wife/ girlfriend a gun and have her take combat lessons.
You'll have a friend to shoot with and no more grief about collecting. I bought my wife/GF a Barretta and lessons and now she's off to the range every Thursday for ladies night.
No issues with any expenditures now.
Just a thought.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by Tim Hancock

I love my Glock and my wife and daughters have not managed to shoot our legs with it yet. IMO, the best thing about it is that it does not have a bunch of safety levers and crap to worry about. Kept in a proper holster and assuming a shooter learns from the beginning to keep his finger out of the trigger well until on target, Glocks seem like the perfect dead reliable self defense weapon.

There is far less to worry about on a P7, and you won't shoot yourself in the leg over even the most minor of handling errors- which is certainly not true with a glock.

Remember, as you yourself told me, the environment you're using yours in is completely supervised and EXTREMELY safety conscious. That's not the case when you're using one for CCW or clearing your house at 2 am with one because you heard a noise. It's you, alone, in the dark, nerves on edge- with a pistol with a light, short, trigger pull... and no safety.

The term Glock Leg(TM) exists for a reason. And the statistics speak for themselves.

I believe i heard that Euro Glocks all come with a safety now, by the way. (They make a safety kit for US models too, for those of us that realize that we are human and humans make mistakes and should not be walking around with hair trigger pistols with no safety)

I find the standard glock design to be the most inherently unforgiving auto pistol design i have ever handled.

[targa911S]

Originally Posted by Talewinds

And what wisdom can you impart to us "newbs" that would uphold that statement?
Lack of safeties on the Glock maybe? (I wouldn't consider a Glock anyway, ever.)
Single action, FTF/FTE issues on 1911's?

I just don't understand why anyone should be steered away from a 1911, especially if their caliber of choice is .45, which in my case, is my caliber of choice.

Welll for a newbie, a 1911 is a BIG gun. Wanna develop a flinch? Start there.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by Hoots

There is a reason they give Marines the M9. It's a simple weapon.

Originally Posted by dd74

Marine issue, huh? So it must be good.


How much do these go for now-a-days? What rounds do they take?

Excuse my ignorance, but honestly, break-ins are becoming too familiar a reality in my neighborhood, and it seems home protection will become a necessity.

Also, for spread shot, I've been looking at a Bernelli M4; also Marine issue.

The M1014 benelli and M9 Beretta are US Army issue as well. In fact they were both adopted by the US Army first, then the USMC at a later date IIRC.

Both are magnificent weapons, but if you use a benelli DO NOT use low brass shells. They jam. Seen it many times.

Beretta M9 is a 9mm pistol with 15+1 capacity. Excellent choice if size is not a factor. They are large spoons.

A P7 9mm is a much smaller weapon, yet is more accurate. The P7 "only" holds 9rds though.

Originally Posted by Rot 911

Arguing what is the best pistol is like arguing what is the best beer.

Not really, best pistol is very quantifiable and testable. It's just also very emotional to many.

Example, many people refuse to acknowledge that a pistol with a short, hair trigger and no safety is an inherently UNFORGIVING design, for instance. Firearms are every bit as dangerous as a saber saw or other industrial machine. Would anyone operate a sabersaw with the guards and safeties removed? How about a car with all the safety devices removed, ie, no airbags, no seatbelts, no emergency brake, etc, etc?

Sure, to do so is perfectly "safe", until you make even a small error. To me, if your name is Jesus, you can use whatever you want. Everyone else should absolutely be concerned about safety first.

But again, this is just MO.

Originally Posted by berettafan

Would also look at this P7 thing Sniper is always going on about. Getting interested in those myself.

If you shoot a P7 you'll be hooked. So far i've sold 4 P7's to fellow shooters just by letting them test fire mine.

Conversation i had with one of the Robbins from Robbins 8th and Walnut fame:

Me:"OK, youre gonna aim and put all your bullets in the X"
Them: "Bro, im not a good shot, i don't think i've ever hit the bullseye."
Me: "Just do what i told you, and take your time."
Them: X ring, X ring, X ring, 10 ring, 9 ring, X ring.
Them: "HOLY CRAP I WANT ONE!"

The Doctor i was dating can hit bulls eyes left or right handed, shooting one handed, with ease. She bought hers after shooting mine one time.

Heckler and Koch P7's sell themselves- you just have to shoot one.

A couple pelicans have already bought a P7 on my recommendation. Remember we're talking about $1000+ guns that are only this cheap because they were all traded in en mass after decades of service by the German police. Every one of them is completely internally refurbished and tested before shipment to the US. The prices are already going back up fast now that the supply of trade ins is running out.

[Hoots]

Originally Posted by TGTIW

Didn't the Marines also have a saying about the Beretta and the slide failures?
Something about not tasting Italian until you've shot a Beretta..

“You’re not a S.E.A.L. ‘till you have eaten Italian steel…”

It was the Navy SEALs while testing the 92FS (civilian model of the M9). The slides on a few cracked during testing after firing +25,000 rounds of P+ ammo. Beretta made some changes and and the gun has been in service ever since.
More info.

[Talewinds]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

Remember we're talking about $1000+ guns that are only this cheap because they were all traded in en mass after decades of service by the German police. Every one of them is completely internally refurbished and tested before shipment to the US. The prices are already going back up fast now that the supply of trade ins is running out.

You've said this before, and above you threw out a number of $550. Where are you deriving these prices from?
Gunsamerica has been saying something quite different for quite a while...
GunsAmerica - Search - Guns For Sale & Gun Auctions B"H

Are they not a good resource/ market indicator???

[m21sniper]

You just quoted a link for a US P7M8. They cost triple the price as a P7.

I also had an M8. It is no better, it's just much more rare. I sold my M8 and kept my Euro P7.

There you go, grade C's for $539:

http://www.hkspecialiststore.com/product_detail.php?Category=22&Page_Number=&Index_Seq=552&Home_Page=Index

Originally Posted by Hoots

“You’re not a S.E.A.L. ‘till you have eaten Italian steel…”

It was the Navy SEALs while testing the 92FS (civilian model of the M9). The slides on a few cracked during testing after firing +25,000 rounds of P+ ammo. Beretta made some changes and and the gun has been in service ever since.
More info.

That was a problem with the early guns, but IIRC there were only ever 3 incidents of it happening after THOUSANDS of rounds of torture testing with NATO 9mm+P ammo.

They've been significantly beefed up since. Any M9 made from say 1990 on should have all those upgrades.

[Talewinds]

Ok I see.

[m21sniper]

No problemo. I was not aware of all the different versions myself until i got serious about buying one.

To me, the P7 is a far more elegant looking pistol than the M8. One is no better than the other accuracy or reliability wise. The M8 has a US style mag release, but i prefer the flush heel release of the P7. It is impossible to accidentally eject the mag while CCWing.

There are several good suggestions on this thread.

For home defense, the M9 is a great choice- but it's really big. To me the P7 is a better carry gun, whereas the M9 is probably a better HD gun, just because of it's huge capacity.

I love Sigs accuracy, quality, and reliability, but they're totally unfriendly to left handers. The slide release and de-cocker lever are just in the wrong spot to allow the pistol to be reasonably ambidextrous. And again, no safety.

Many a cop/citizen has been shot when his gun is wrested from him and the bad guy blasts him with it. ANY manual safety of any type vastly improves your odds of survival if you lose your pistol in a scrum. This is an indisputable fact.

So i prefer the P7 to the Sigs because it has the most unique, instinctive, fast action safety system ever devised. And it's uniqueness means that whoever gets your gun probably has absolutely no idea how to make it fire. That gives you time to wrestle him to get it back, or to turn and run like hell for another gun or safety.

If you're right handed and don't care about a safety, Sig Sauers are unbeatable IMO.

[m21sniper]

S&W 3rd Gen autos are actually also a great choice, and you can get them quite cheap nowadays. Out of the box the only thing they "need" IMO is a trigger job. The factory trigger pull has a lot of creep. They clean up nice though.

I had a S&W auto full custom job for about 15 years before i finally was able to get my dream gun (HK P7)

Nice features of S&W 3rd Gen 9mm double stack auto is that they're very ergonomic, feel great in the hand, they're completely ambidextrous, they are totally reliable, they have ALL KINDS of safety features(manual and magazine safeties), and they hold a lot of bullets.

Here's my now gone S&W custom hybrid. (3.5" bbl 6906 slide on a 5903 full size 15rd frame):



Here's another pic of my P7 before i got the HUD added and grips hi polished. I have a laser on order for it now too. Should be here on the 23rd:



PS: I consider either tritium night sights or a laser to be an absolute must on a defensive firearm. 90+% of all shootings occur in low light. Adding a means to reliably aim in low light gives you a MASSIVE advantage. If you ever find yourself in a fair gunfight, you planned very, very poorly.

[nostatic]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

So i prefer the P7 to the Sigs because it has the most unique, instinctive, fast action safety system ever devised. And it's uniqueness means that whoever gets your gun probably has absolutely no idea how to make it fire. That gives you time to wrestle him to get it back, or to turn and run like hell for another gun or safety.
.

How can it be instinctive to the owner and completely befuddle a bad guy?