What choice for first pistol?

[Hoots]

Originally Posted by nostatic

How can it be instinctive to the owner and completely befuddle a bad guy?

[Tim Hancock]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

Remember, as you yourself told me, the environment you're using yours in is completely supervised and EXTREMELY safety conscious. That's not the case when you're using one for CCW or clearing your house at 2 am with one because you heard a noise. It's you, alone, in the dark, nerves on edge- with a pistol with a light, short, trigger pull... and no safety.

I wish mine had a "light short trigger pull". I have tweaked it and it still is much crappier than my 2 lb Ruger Mark II .22. I have no problem whatsoever with the thought of using mine for home self defense in the middle of the night. In fact I think I will start keeping it in the house with me as I can never remember which way to slide the safety lever on my Mossberg shotgun when I go outside at night when the dog is barking. Thanks for making me think of it Sniper!

[tabs]

Navy SEALS don't use the Berretta...they prefer the Colt 1911. As a matter of fact all the special ops like the 1911..and that is why the US govt is testing various 45 ACP pistols to replace the Beretta 92. The 9MM cartridege jus tdoesn't have the one shot stopping power of the 45 ACP.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by nostatic

How can it be instinctive to the owner and completely befuddle a bad guy?

Because you don't have to hit a switch, you only have to KNOW to squeeze it really tight (26lbs of force applied directly to the front of the grip). A BG has no such knowledge.

That's how.

I encourage you to research the P7's squeeze cocker. It is totally unique, and very well thought of by virtually all gun egggsburts.
Apparently the simple fact is that in 3 decades no cop or citizen has ever been shot with his own P7 after being disarmed.

And again, the P7 is the most accurate handspoon i have ever shot.

"...if one is going to carry an underpowered pistol (9mm), he should carry the neatest and handiest one available, and that is the Heckler & Koch P7."
~ (The legendary) Col. Jeff Cooper

Since the colonel's death several brands of 9mm have hit the markets that rival full power lightweight commercial .357 magnum loadings for raw power. Doubletap, Buffalo Bore and Cor Bon all make a 115gr loading that exceeds 500fpe of muzzle energy. (That's more than 30% more energy than the classical .45 ACP military ball round. DT 9mm= 515fpe, US GI Hardball .45= 350fpe)

Originally Posted by tabs

Navy SEALS don't use the Berretta...they prefer the Colt 1911. As a matter of fact all the special ops like the 1911..and that is why the US govt is testing various 45 ACP pistols to replace the Beretta 92. The 9MM cartridege jus tdoesn't have the one shot stopping power of the 45 ACP.

SPECOPS is the gun of the month club.

They use M-11 Sigs, various custom 1911's, Mk23 HK's (and also HK-45s) and i am sure some of them like M9s. They're allowed to use any of them.

The Elite W. German GSG-9 and Bundeswehr Special Forces both used the P7 for decades. (they may even still, im not sure) So did the Mexican special forces IIRC. Many US swat teams used P7s for decades as well. So did dozens of various US police forces. If HK hadn't discontinued the pistol, i am sure they'd still use them now. In many competitions the P7 was twice as expensive as the competitors and it was still selected over guns like Sig, Glock, Smith, etc. It's that good.

1911's are great pistols, but it is a pretty widely held belief that they are not for novice hand gunners. I share that view.

Originally Posted by Tim Hancock

I wish mine had a "light short trigger pull". I have tweaked it and it still is much crappier than my 2 lb Ruger Mark II .22. I have no problem whatsoever with the thought of using mine for home self defense in the middle of the night. In fact I think I will start keeping it in the house with me as I can never remember which way to slide the safety lever on my Mossberg shotgun when I go outside at night when the dog is barking. Thanks for making me think of it Sniper!

LOL! Wise guy.

Safety on the Mossy slides forward. I actually really like the mossberg safety. It's totally ambi. Most shotgun safeties are setup for a righty.

[ZLP]

The P7 is a good gun but I wouldn't want one as a first pistol or my duty weapon. I don't like how it felt/shot and the magazine capacity was minimal. But those things are all personal preference. I think sniper's looks beautiful and I'd love to have one sitting in my safe and fondle it now and then but you won't find me carrying one in the field.

[m21sniper]

If you do not feel 9 shots is enough for your needs then obviously the P7 (and many other legendary handguns) is clearly not your choice!

The first thing anyone should be with their handgun is comfortable and confident. That being said, i would personally feel fine in any part of Philly or Chester with my P7. I don't knock anyone for wanting more though.

You can get a P7M13 that holds 13+1 rds, but they're about $2000+, and to many, they are the ergonomic of grasping a small brick. The P7M13 was the sidearm of the Detroit SWAT team for a looooong time.

I've seen 23rd extended mags for P7M13s, and i've talked to fellow Pelican Tim Hancock about making me some custom extended 12rd capacity magazines as well. He says he can do it, but they'll protrude quite a bit. I figure i'll end up with a profile like this:

You know tim, it occurs to me that one could make a boatload of money if they devised a +1 mag extension for the P7 that you could replace the factory baseplate and up the capacity to 9rds. There are a lot of these PSPs in America now. I am absolutely certain you'd find a market. I'm just sayin'.....

My main everyday carry gun is an 11 shot .32 auto with a crimson trace laser, so when i carry my 9 shot 9mm i feel like i have a howitzer on me! Honestly, with the top +P+ ammo, a 9 shot 9mm is really equivalent to a 9 shot .357 magnum.


Kel Tec P32 with CT laser

PS: Thanks for the compliments.

[ZLP]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

PS: I consider either tritium night sights or a laser to be an absolute must on a defensive firearm. 90+% of all shootings occur in low light. Adding a means to reliably aim in low light gives you a MASSIVE advantage. If you ever find yourself in a fair gunfight, you planned very, very poorly.
[/IMG]

Night sights yes, laser I disagree. Not only is it somewhat of a crutch to make up for not being able to aim properly, you would be screwed if it didn't work in a time of need. A technique such as point shooting is easy to practice and will work far better in a self defense situation than aiming with a laser. Many times when facing threats in close proximity you simply do not have time to properly aim or acquire a laser dot before you shoot. Point shooting becomes muscle memory and you would be surprised that even a novice shooter can be very consistent with it.

[vash]

i have night sights on my sig. amazing. are they gonna last forever? i bet the pistol is 12 years old. maybe more.

anyways, 1st pistol? get whatever you want. just make it match the purpose.

[Tobra]

A Colt Diamondback is almost a grand? Wow, my brother will be happy to hear that

Originally Posted by m21sniper

Because you don't have to hit a switch, you only have to KNOW to squeeze it really tight (26lbs of force applied directly to the front of the grip). A BG has no such knowledge.

I do now

[m21sniper]

Point shooting does not intimidate anyone into not being a douche like shining a laser in their face does. Lasers are very good for that.

Night sights and point shooting also do not totally blind your attacker if he decides he still wants to be a douche even with a laser lighting up his face.

Point shooting definitely works, but unless you're a legendary old west pistolero, it is not a precision engagement technique. Lasers obviously are far more precise.

Lasers can also be used in a pinch to illuminate a really dark room you are unfamiliar with to navigate (esp. green lasers) while throwing off far less detectable light than a flashlight.

A laser can be fired from any position. Over your head from your back, off to your weak side after being knocked over, and be fired with a high level of precision. I find this of interest because if you ever wake to find an intruder standing above you in the dark(say in a hotel room, or whatever), he's pretty much Fked as long as you can get a shot off.

A laser is also ideal for people who have very little time or money or facilities to train.

They're also magnificent for developing your trigger pull with dry fire techniques.

Some like them, some don't. I really do.

To me the only drawback of a pressure activated laser is if you trigger it too soon or in a stupid way. It is an aimpoint for the bad guy, and that sure is not good. I do not like lasers with a constant on/off switch or lasers that trigger for a set amount of time then go out only when that time expires.

My KT has night sights and a laser, as does my AR- both are pressure activated. The laser for my P7 is in the mail. The one i ordered has an on/off switch, but it's right where my finger goes when it's not in the trigger guard, so it should be ok.


Lasers on US Infantry rifles are prolific now. The PEQ-2A is pretty much ubiquitous.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by vash

i have night sights on my sig. amazing. are they gonna last forever? i bet the pistol is 12 years old. maybe more.

anyways, 1st pistol? get whatever you want. just make it match the purpose.

12 years is the half life for tritium. New ones should be at least 2x as bright. By 15 years, they barely even glow. My 15yo Trijicons on my S&W were due for replacement when i sold it.

[Rick Lee]

I'm six years into my second set of Trijicons on my P220. They're bright for about 10 yrs. Trijicon will refresh them for about $50 if you mail them to them.

For some reason, Europeans were never into hi-cap. sidearms. The German cops have used the SIG P225 and HK P7 for a long time, but single stack 9's never got real popular in the US.

[ZLP]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

Point shooting does not intimidate anyone into not being a douche like shining a laser in their face does. Lasers are very good for that.

Night sights and point shooting also do not totally blind your attacker if he decides he still wants to be a douche even with a laser lighting up his face.

Point shooting definitely works, but unless you're a legendary old west pistolero, it is not a precision engagement technique. Lasers obviously are far more precise.

Lasers can also be used in a pinch to illuminate a really dark room you are unfamiliar with to navigate (esp. green lasers) while throwing off far less detectable light than a flashlight.

A laser can be fired from any position. Over your head from your back, off to your weak side after being knocked over, and be fired with a high level of precision. I find this of interest because if you ever wake to find an intruder standing above you in the dark(say in a hotel room, or whatever), he's pretty much Fked as long as you can get a shot off.

A laser is also ideal for people who have very little time or money or facilities to train.

They're also magnificent for developing your trigger pull with dry fire techniques.

Some like them, some don't. I really do.

To me the only drawback of a pressure activated laser is if you trigger it too soon or in a stupid way. It is an aimpoint for the bad guy, and that sure is not good. I do not like lasers with a constant on/off switch or lasers that trigger for a set amount of time then go out only when that time expires.

My KT has night sights and a laser, as does my AR- both are pressure activated. The laser for my P7 is in the mail. The one i ordered has an on/off switch, but it's right where my finger goes when it's not in the trigger guard, so it should be ok.


Lasers on US Infantry rifles are prolific now. The PEQ-2A is pretty much ubiquitous.

If a BG is not intimidated by a gun he won't be by a little red dot either. When blinding a threat a weapon light is a much better choice. Lasers provide very little in terms of precision. Go to the range and try to hold it on a bulls-eye at 15 yards and it will make even the most steady hands look like they have the shakes. I'm not sure what kind of situations you are finding yourself in but wanting to blind someone with a laser made me laugh.

[ZLP]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

I'm six years into my second set of Trijicons on my P220. They're bright for about 10 yrs. Trijicon will refresh them for about $50 if you mail them to them.

For some reason, Europeans were never into hi-cap. sidearms. The German cops have used the SIG P225 and HK P7 for a long time, but single stack 9's never got real popular in the US.

England's LEO's carry MP5's with 10 round mags. They have a gun free utopia over there so high capacity is not necessary.

[dd74]

How about something in 10mm? As a second pistol...

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by ZLP

If a BG is not intimidated by a gun he won't be by a little red dot either. When blinding a threat a weapon light is a much better choice. Lasers provide very little in terms of precision. Go to the range and try to hold it on a bulls-eye at 15 yards and it will make even the most steady hands look like they have the shakes. I'm not sure what kind of situations you are finding yourself in but wanting to blind someone with a laser made me laugh.

I disagree with every opinion you just offered entirely.

Thank you for your opinion though!

I can certainly see why wanting to blind someone that i know is about to mug or rob me, or has just attempted to mug or rob me in a bad part of town late at night would make you laugh! Or someone i just caught trying to get through my living room window at 3:00am at night! CRAZY!!! (I guess some would say you should just shoot people in these scenarios, but if i had shot everyone i could legally shoot, i would have shot at least 3-4 men in my lifetime, as opposed to the 3-4 i did not have to shoot because i knew i had the obvious advantage and did not just execute them, but gave them a chance to surrender instead)

My imagination for scenarios is being fueled by my decade spent as a repossessor (and variously PI, subpoena servicer and very briefly bail enforcement) in one of the craziest urban combat zones in America and my enlistment as a US infantryman. I do not proclaim to be an all knowing expert, but i certainly know what my experiences have taught me.

YMMV

[ZLP]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

I disagree with every opinion you just offered entirely.

Thank you for your opinion though!

I can certainly see why wanting to blind someone that i know is about to mug or rob me, or has just attempted to mug or rob me in a bad part of town late at night would make you laugh! Or someone i just caught trying to get through my living room window at 3:00am at night! CRAZY!!! (I guess some would say you should just shoot people in these scenarios, but if i had shot everyone i could legally shoot, i would have shot at least 3-4 men in my lifetime, as opposed to the 3-4 i did not have to shoot because i knew i had the obvious advantage and did not just execute them, but gave them a chance to surrender instead)

My imagination for scenarios is being fueled by my decade spent as a repossessor (and variously PI, subpoena servicer and very briefly bail enforcement) in one of the craziest urban combat zones in America and my enlistment as a US infantryman. I do not proclaim to be an all knowing expert, but i certainly know what my experiences have taught me.

YMMV

So you have had shoot situations but you didn't because you pointed your laser in the attackers eye blinding them?

[TGTIW]

I believe if blinding them with your laser does not work, you can then toss them your firearm, provided it's a P7. Their ensuing blindness and confusion over how to operate the gun will allow you time to escape.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by TGTIW

I believe if blinding them with your laser does not work, you can then toss them your firearm, provided it's a P7. Their ensuing blindness and confusion over how to operate the gun will allow you time to escape.

Hahahah, now that's hilarious.

[ZLP]

Originally Posted by tgtiw

i believe if blinding them with your laser does not work, you can then toss them your firearm, provided it's a p7. Their ensuing blindness and confusion over how to operate the gun will allow you time to escape.

lol!