Arizona is about to be the 3rd state to allow CCW with no permit

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

Still, it's gonna take someone with brass balls and deep pockets who wants to be the first test case. The feds don't like seeing their illegal behavior challenged by the sheeple.

True and will be interesting. Feel that its time that the Feds lose some of their power and they aint gonna like it!

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by jyl

Has any company even set up shop manufacturing and selling firearms in Montana?

There are many small manufacturers in many states. We have AZ Armory, Robar and Ruger is even based here now. The catch is going to be how far down the manufacturing chain the law goes. Frame only? Barrel? Bolt? Ram materials? What all has to come from AZ? If manufacturers really win this battle, I expect to see a lot more custom builders moving to states where they can work without asking BATF's permission for local sales.

[legion]

Does that mean that Dillon Aero's stuff is no longer subject to federal gun laws if sold within the state of Arizona?

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by legion

Does that mean that Dillon Aero's stuff is no longer subject to federal gun laws if sold within the state of Arizona?

I doubt they're gonna risk their federal contracts testing this one. And I doubt there are many individuals in AZ who can afford to put one of those into service.

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by creaturecat

Well, Joe. I am a hell of a lot more "west" than you are. On the Pacific Ocean.
I do believe most crimes are committed in a "nice big city environment". Correct?
You want to shoot rattlers?
Be my Guest!

California is not West, its in a whole different world or cosmos. Reality has not existed in Kalifornia for the last 30-40 years. We have no will to have anything to do with that part of the country and the sooner it falls in the Pacific ocean and makes our state "beachfront property" the better.

Everyone does not live in a "nice big city" here in Arizona so shelve that argument. Everyone everywhere deserves the right to protect themselves. The 2nd admendment provides for that. The courts on the left coast are doing everything that they can to abolish the Constitution and admendments, and now the states have had enough of this crap, and passing laws that work around it.

How about you worry about YOUR state and leave ours alone!

[Jim Bremner]

Originally Posted by creaturecat

Well, Joe. I am a hell of a lot more "west" than you are. On the Pacific Ocean.
I do believe most crimes are committed in a "nice big city environment". Correct?
You want to shoot rattlers?
Be my Guest!

I'm pretty far West as wel. I do belive that Criminals WILL carry a gun with-out a permit. For some reason, they're criminals! they do not follow the norms and laws that normal folks abide by.

I know several people that SHOULD not own guns due to their anger issues. Strange thing is is they're aware of it, and that they feel that they shouldn't own a gun.

I'm a small biz owner, and a travelling sales rep. My warehouse is in the "hood". More than a few times I have had the "getto hawk circling around my building! I lock the place down and I'm fearfull to leave my building.

I've been in some neighbor hoods that I feel uncomfortable in, with 20k -50 or more worth of goods in the back of my pick-up.

I have never been arrested, I'm a decnt person and I feel that I'm level headed I should be allowed to carry.

the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

[varmint]

they keep saying that this will lead to rednecks getting into old west gun fights over parking spaces. but that never materializes. you'd think the opponents could point to a few examples of violence increasing.

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Originally Posted by varmint

they keep saying that this will lead to rednecks getting into old west gun fights over parking spaces. but that never materializes. you'd think the opponents could point to a few examples of violence increasing.

Yeah, they have all those shootouts in Vermont to cite.

The BATFE has already tightened down the straps on their jackboots and unilaterally repealed the 10th Amendment:

ATF to Tennessee: We're above your law

I got in an argument with some coworkers about this yesterday. Ironically most are pretty conservative.

They had some pretty lame arguments.

I don't want untrained people running around with a concealed pistol

Have you ever attended the AZ CCW training? It's a 1/2 day of legalese, basically providing guidelines for what comprises a "good shoot". The target qualification could be passed by a chimp with the DT's.

Now ANYONE can get away with carrying a gun!

Uh...THEY DO. It's just the law-abiding people--those who are afraid to get caught carrying concealed without a CCW--who are left unarmed.

Now people will be allowed to bring their guns into gun-free zones!

Ignoring the stupidity of the concept of a gun-free zone for a moment, NO. At a minimum it's still a trespassing charge if you bring a gun into a posted gun-free establishment.

Now cops' jobs will be so much harder!

Uh...what? If someone is intent on shooting a cop, they're not going to give a flip about whether they're allowed to carry concealed. Law-abiding citizens who can now carry concealed are not going to suddenly decide to shoot cops (who will probably ask & disarm them anyway).

I love the hoplophobic projection going on. "I can't be trusted with a gun, so nobody else can either!!!!!1111one!!!!!"

And.....off to PARF we go.

PS: So what part of shall not be infringed is so hard to understand???

[Joeaksa]

Totally agree with Aaron (Blue).

The people afraid of this need to stay in their basement and come out one or two times a year. Otherwise "something could happen to them" and we MUST make this world a totally safe place to live!

Joe A

[ZLP]

POF is local too. I will take a full auto 11.5" M4 please then take it to SRT and get a suppressor for it.

[cstreit]

Originally Posted by jyl

"The other bill declares that guns manufactured entirely in Arizona are exempt from federal oversight and are not subject to federal laws restricting the sale of firearms or requiring them to be registered."

Unlikely to survive court challenge.

The precedent has already been set in Montana. In fact I believe it was them who also passed a law that any Federal Agent attempting to usurp the states authority on this would be imprisoned.

I sense my retirement home being away from IL.

[Joeaksa]

Chris,

Work hard for a couple of more years. Summers in Montana and winters in Arizona. Life would be great!

Joe A

[porsche4life]

I'm with OJU on this... Not a good deal..

[jyl]

Originally Posted by cstreit

The precedent has already been set in Montana. In fact I believe it was them who also passed a law that any Federal Agent attempting to usurp the states authority on this would be imprisoned.

I sense my retirement home being away from IL.

See my reply to Tobra above. I did some research. A lawsuit has been filed, by a shooting organization in Montana, against the US DOJ, seeking to be a test case. Looks like its in pretrial motions.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by AZ_porschekid

Now that's pretty cool.

Montana and Wyoming have similar provisions.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by jyl

"The other bill declares that guns manufactured entirely in Arizona are exempt from federal oversight and are not subject to federal laws restricting the sale of firearms or requiring them to be registered."

Unlikely to survive court challenge.

No 10th amendment issue, no federal reason for interference.

Sorry charlie.

Originally Posted by creaturecat

So, untrained people. No background checks. All carrying handguns.
This is a good thing?
With all due respect,
This is sick. On many levels.

It's been like that in Pennsylvania for 15+ years.

Feel free to point out the stories where it has been a problem.

Vermont doesn't even require a permit and no training at all. As far as i know, it has never once been a problem.

Originally Posted by Jim Bremner

I'm pretty far West as wel. I do belive that Criminals WILL carry a gun with-out a permit. For some reason, they're criminals! they do not follow the norms and laws that normal folks abide by.

Felons are not allowed to so much as possess a gun, regardless of requiring a permit.

Perhaps you lads should actually read the laws governing this before you all start to hyperventilate.

Originally Posted by porsche4life

I'm with OJU on this... Not a good deal..

No surprise there.

Did you formulate that opinion during gym class, or during recess?

Originally Posted by jyl

See my reply to Tobra above. I did some research. A lawsuit has been filed, by a shooting organization in Montana, against the US DOJ, seeking to be a test case. Looks like its in pretrial motions.

Yep, it will be interesting to see how the courts rule. I suspect with Fed Gov't is about to get fked.

[BlueSkyJaunte]

You know what I'm worried about? All of the mouth-breathing, hoplophobic, hand-wringing anti-gun ninnies are now able to carry a concealed pistol, and they'll probably SHOOT me if I disagree with them!!!

[Jim Bremner]

Originally Posted by Jim Bremner
I'm pretty far West as wel. I do belive that Criminals WILL carry a gun with-out a permit. For some reason, they're criminals! they do not follow the norms and laws that normal folks abide by.

Felons are not allowed to so much as possess a gun, regardless of requiring a permit.

Perhaps you lads should actually read the laws governing this before you all start to hyperventilate.

Yes, felons are restricted from gun ownership. This is a good thing!

I'm saying that for the class of people that are criminals, the're a reason that they're a criminal....they do not follow laws.

[m21sniper]

It's already illegal for a felon to have a gun, so what difference does a permit make Jim?

A cop catches a felon with a gun, he's already getting pinched for a felony, not some mickey mouse misdemeanor for carrying a gun without a permit. (In most places it is not a felony to carry a loaded gun without a permit). If someone is not a felon, then they are innocent until proven guilty, and they have every bit as much right to a firearm as you or I.

The 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution says, and i quote, "A well regulated militia, being necessary for the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

A permit is an infringement.
Requiring training is an infringement (remember the old Jim Crow voters "tests?"- SCOTUS ruled that requiring someone to pass a test in order to exercise a constitutional right is in and of itself, unconstitutional.)

A permit, on it's very face, is unconstitutional.

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by Jim Bremner

Originally Posted by Jim Bremner
I'm pretty far West as wel. I do belive that Criminals WILL carry a gun with-out a permit. For some reason, they're criminals! they do not follow the norms and laws that normal folks abide by.

Felons are not allowed to so much as possess a gun, regardless of requiring a permit.

Perhaps you lads should actually read the laws governing this before you all start to hyperventilate.

Yes, felons are restricted from gun ownership. This is a good thing!

I'm saying that for the class of people that are criminals, the're a reason that they're a criminal....they do not follow laws.

Jim,

Please read up on the laws before saying things like this.

First agree with the initial part. Real hard core criminals carry a weapon because they do not care about laws. Thank God that most people convicted of a felony are not these people.

Felons are allowed to have weapons in many cases. Goes state by state then the federal govt has a program that does restore a felons rights to own a firearm. Not been used in a long time but for a while it was legal. Felons who did this can now own firearms again with NO restrictions. I have seen one of these certificates, but they are very rare.

Sorry but please do not make blanket statements like this! What if you got convicted of a felony involving tax fraud. Just what in the world does that have with your owning a weapon? What about a felony involving stock options? Again, what in the world does that have to do with weapons?

All felons are not the same. Some take a chainsaw and cut people's gizzard out, making them a "not so nice person" and I would agree that this person need not have a weapon ever again. As well someone who was involved in a violent crime, or rape, robbery, murder and so on. "White collar crime" or something non-violent on the other hand is a totally different class, so please lets not mix the two together.

Lastly there are a lot of states like Texas that allow a felon who is off probation or parole to have a weapon on their land and house for self defense. Many other states allow this, so once again it is legal depending on the circumstances for a felon to have a weapon. Frankly if they are not a violent offender I totally support this.

Just because some got caught doing something one time and is now a convicted felon does not mean that they have no regard for ALL LAWS like you are making it sound like. In my capacity as chief pilot for a large (700 pilots and 140 airplanes) I saw resumes almost every day. Our flight operation had many convicted felons working for us. Almost every company does. Most of the ones I knew about were pilots and most of them got popped for using pot or coke as a kid in school, then worked themselves out of the hole and turned things around. For the most part these people worked harder than the "normal" ones because they were thankful for the chance to start over and make something with their lives.

Please, lets not use the "blanket method" of harpooning someone like this.

Joe A