Another execution-by-police

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by kimlangley7

swat team here in Fairfax county,VA killed a eye doctor who was taking sports bets on the side... the swat cowboy "accidently" shot him in the chest with his HK .45ACP.

this was a couple of years ago > lawsuit finalized and hte county to pay the victims family $2M.

the swat cowboy never charged with anything >> meaning in FFC > swat has free reign to shoot whomever they want > and the DA will give them a pass ...

Totally agree that cops today are out of control>> way too many swat cowboys looking for a "rush"...

I have two tours in Iraq and a couple of trips to Afghanistan and these cops [video] are way ove rthe top.... out of control...

Repost. That was my neighbor.

[Gogar]

Just as a side note re: yelling "Search Warrant", etc.


Most folks don't realize that when that 'flash-bang' grenade goes through the window and explodes:

If you were in the house and less than 30 feet away, etc., you can't hear a damn thing at all except incredible pain and ringing in your ears, like someone shot off a pistol next to your ear.

All the "Search warrant" screaming doesn't do a thing in the world if you can't hear. Can't see much either after a flash grenade just exploded in your eyes.

And, as mentioned: If you were nodding off to sleep and heard a big commotion on the front lawn, about half the fellas on this board would be scrambling for a handgun and trying to figure out what happened.


Not a big deal, but it is an example of the "what the hell was I supposed to do" contradictory style of some of these raids.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr

Jeff

You're making a lot of assumptions in your last post.

Such as?

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr

it is reasonable to expect that the "perp" knew who was approaching the house.
The element of surprise was over as soon as the cops yelled "Warrant"...

could you, from a dead sleep, in five seconds or less, have made the correct series of decisions to have saved your life on this one?

Probably not but I wouldn't have jumped out of bed, picked up a golf club and adopted the base ball bat position just before the COPS broke down the front door. You know... Those guys yelling "Warrant" as they crossed your front lawn.

I don't mind responding to you posts and I don't think it's a waste of time to do so.

So, how many times have you slept right through some kind of loud ruckus outside, or even inside your own house? I know I've slept through everything from peeling, window rattling thunder to sirens going through the neighborhood. I'll sleep right through the (later at night) neighborhood fireworks on the fourth of July and New Year's. It often takes several hard shoves and loud "JEFF!!!" 's for my wife to wake me up on a weekend morning. Same thing if she thinks she heard something in the middle of the night. Shouting in the front yard in the middle of the night? It would probably have to go on for awhile to wake me up, and even then I would have to clear the fog a bit to understand what it was all about, what they were saying.

Even if I was wide awake when it started, I would have a hard time figuring out what was being said, or what was going on. Watching TV in bed, or listening to music? Down the hall in a backside bedroom, with no view out of the front? Forget it. Not a chance.

You are assuming he woke up at the first shout of "warrant!", was able to (or even tried) to see out front (it was pitch dark in the video) and was fully alert and aware what was taking place (we are retracing that part of the conversation now as well - go back and read some of it again). Or, you are assuming he was wide awake and alert, he had no television or music on, he was not on the phone, or the hopper, or in any other way distracted. You are even assuming he knew the ruckus was in his yard - how would he? At no time did the cops identify which house, or who was the object of their affections. The poor guy had less than five seconds to figure all of that out.

So, let's follow your logic. He knew full well he was taking on a heavily armed SWAT team. He had plenty of time to reach that understanding, and was certain that was who was busting through his front door. In the face of that, our hardened criminal grabs... a golf club. Uh-huh...

How clear does it have to be that he had no idea what was going on? I think we established very early in this discussion that he simply could not have known under those circumstances, in the time given to figure it out. I think after having established that, the LEO set adopted the position of essentially "yeah, so what? That's what he gets for being stupid enough to not know how to behave around us. Besides, he was a meth head, so who gives a *****?"

Like I have said a couple of times already, this thing has gone full circle. We are rehashing old arguments. As many times, as many ways as you would like to do that, one thing will never change - police killed an innocent man, in his own home, in a military-like raid conducted with the full knowledge that the guy they wanted had already moved out. For that, there can never be any excuse.

[MMARSH]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Cops like to attribute this to stress on the job. If that were truly the case, wouldn't we see, say, air traffic controllers beating the hell out of their wives, children, nieces, nephews, grandchildren, and anyone else that got in their way? Hell, a lot of us have stressful jobs, and we manage not to beat our wives and kids when we get home.

Cops also like to attribute some of their misbehavior to the dangers of police work. Well, sorry, but police work in the U.S. doesn't even make the top ten "most dangerous jobs". It falls well behind things like construction and commercial fishing.

Jeff, Im not gonna get into this a whole lot, but I'm gonna address a couple of things...

Im sure plenty of people including you may have stressful jobs. But, other then those serving in the military, How many people do you think have seen or dealt with their co workers being killed by the hands of another in the course of thier job.....I'm not not talking car accidents, but murdered, shot in the face point ****ing blank, shot and killed on a T-stop, shot and killed going into a backyard after burglary suspect, even shot and killed entering a house serving a warrant. I could mention numerous other instances of co-workers who were shot and not killed.

Tell me Jeff, How many funerals have you gone to under those circumstances. Seriously, I can't tell you off the top of my head how many I've attended under those circumstances...People that I know and worked with.... Mike Gagen(TED) on this board was an Air Traffic Controller, stressful job for sure, but how many of his co-workers been murdered, how many have yours? I'm not making excuses for domestic violence or misbehavior by officers, those officers should be dealt with. But I don't appreciate you or anyone else dismissing the real stress and dangers that officers deal with. Of course the ones who do this, don't do this job....

I seriously doubt, that no matter how stressful your job is or most peoples job is, that they look in the mirror everyday when they are getting dressed and ask themselves if this will be the day that someone will try to kill me......

Of course, there will be some people on this board that think I'm being dramatic, but there are quite a few who know that thats the truth.

[widebody911]

Originally Posted by MMARSH

Jeff, Im not gonna get into this a whole lot, but I'm gonna address a couple of things...

Im sure plenty of people including you may have stressful jobs. But, other then those serving in the military, How many people do you think have seen or dealt with their co workers being killed by the hands of another in the course of thier job.....I'm not not talking car accidents, but murdered, shot in the face point ****ing blank, shot and killed on a T-stop, shot and killed going into a backyard after burglary suspect, even shot and killed entering a house serving a warrant. I could mention numerous other instances of co-workers who were shot and not killed.

Tell me Jeff, How many funerals have you gone to under those circumstances. Seriously, I can't tell you off the top of my head how many I've attended under those circumstances...People that I know and worked with.... Mike Gagen(TED) on this board was an Air Traffic Controller, stressful job for sure, but how many of his co-workers been murdered, how many have yours? I'm not making excuses for domestic violence or misbehavior by officers, those officers should be dealt with. But I don't appreciate you or anyone else dismissing the real stress and dangers that officers deal with. Of course the ones who do this, don't do this job....

I seriously doubt, that no matter how stressful your job is or most peoples job is, that they look in the mirror everyday when they are getting dressed and ask themselves if this will be the day that someone will try to kill me......

Of course, there will be some people on this board that think I'm being dramatic, but there are quite a few who know that thats the truth.

TL;DR: if you or your co-workers run the risk of getting shot, it's cool if you want to let off some steam by triple-tapping somone in the chest.

[dhoward]

If it's too stressful, get a different job. There ARE more dangerous jobs. Really.

[Jeff Higgins]

Michael, I'm not trying to dismiss the level of stress you guys are faced with, or the fact that it is of a whole different caliber that I will never know. I cannot amply express how much I appreciate what you guys do for us, and the risks you take in doing so. I'll never minimize that, and I apologize that it sounded like I was.

I was trying - probably all too clumsily - to point out that it is used as an excuse for some rather inexcusable behavior both on the job and at home, when that behavior probably originates elsewhere. In other words, I believe guys prone to bullying in general and especially those prone to beating their wives are that way for reasons other than the stress involved in their work.

Myself, I'm left to wonder why the rest of you do not effectively deal with these blights on your profession. Police seem to be unusually protective, and protected, when it comes to clear problems with discipline and attitude within the ranks. I don't think I can overstate just what the combination of bullying cops and the protection they enjoy has done to your public image. For example, I work in what has to be one of the penultimate uber-geek environments - that of the dual pocket protector, horn rimmed glasses (with the piece of tape in the middle), white shirted, high water pants aerospace engineer. And guess what? One would be very, very hard pressed to find one who has any respect whatsoever for cops. Amazing, in light of the fact that most have never met one, except for maybe getting a traffic ticket for holding up traffic. Why on earth would they harbor such an attitude?

I'm sure it's the all-too-well publicized cases of police brutality, unjust police shootings, and what appears to be out and out murder that time and time again is found, by the now infamous internal review boards, to be "justified". Hell, this has become so endemic in our society that even stand up comedians have been having a field day with it for years. Something has to change, or you will never regain the public's respect. That would be a shame.

[Racerbvd]

Originally Posted by MMARSH

Jeff, Im not gonna get into this a whole lot, but I'm gonna address a couple of things...

Im sure plenty of people including you may have stressful jobs. But, other then those serving in the military, How many people do you think have seen or dealt with their co workers being killed by the hands of another in the course of thier job.....I'm not not talking car accidents, but murdered, shot in the face point ****ing blank, shot and killed on a T-stop, shot and killed going into a backyard after burglary suspect, even shot and killed entering a house serving a warrant. I could mention numerous other instances of co-workers who were shot and not killed.

Tell me Jeff, How many funerals have you gone to under those circumstances. Seriously, I can't tell you off the top of my head how many I've attended under those circumstances...People that I know and worked with.... Mike Gagen(TED) on this board was an Air Traffic Controller, stressful job for sure, but how many of his co-workers been murdered, how many have yours? I'm not making excuses for domestic violence or misbehavior by officers, those officers should be dealt with. But I don't appreciate you or anyone else dismissing the real stress and dangers that officers deal with. Of course the ones who do this, don't do this job....

I seriously doubt, that no matter how stressful your job is or most peoples job is, that they look in the mirror everyday when they are getting dressed and ask themselves if this will be the day that someone will try to kill me......

Of course, there will be some people on this board that think I'm being dramatic, but there are quite a few who know that thats the truth.

That is not dramatic, it is real life. We know that when we exceed the speed limit in our Porsches that we are taking a chance at...

1) Getting a ticket.
2) Crashing..
3) nothing happening at all but enjoying the ride..

Some one who hangs out with drug dealers & gang bangers knows that they are taking a chance at...

1)Getting arrested..
2)Getting shot by the Police..
3) Getting Robbed by other drug dealers or gang bangers..
4)Getting shot by other drug dealers or gang bangers..
5)Getting high & nothing else...



Wal-Mart Shooting: 2 Dead, 2 Deputies Hurt - CBS News

Wal-Mart Shooting: 2 Dead, 2 Deputies HurtOne Man Shot to Death by Deputies at the Scene; A Woman Dies Later in the Hospital
..
A shootout at a Wal-Mart in Washington state left two dead and two deputies injured Sunday. In this Nov. 24, 2009, file photo, a shopping cart at a Wal-Mart store in Los Angeles, Calif., is seen. (ROBYN BECK/AFP/Getty Images)

(AP) PORT ORCHARD, Wash. - Sheriff's officers say a shootout Sunday afternoon at a Wal-Mart in Washington state left two people dead and two sheriff's deputies wounded.
Kitsap County sheriff's spokesman Scott Wilson says a man was shot to death by deputies outside the store in Port Orchard Sunday afternoon, while a young woman died after being taken to a Tacoma hospital.

Wilson says officers received a call about a suspicious person at the store. He says deputies tried to talk to the man, who then ran and began shooting. Three deputes, including the two wounded, returned fire.

Wilson says he doesn't know whether the two people who were killed knew each other.

The incident began at about 3:45 p.m. and few details were known, including what sparked the shootings, Boyer said.

Witness Victor Meyers told KOMO-TV that the first shot was followed by six more in rapid succession.

"I heard one shot, which I thought was a car backfiring, and then several more reported back, which I knew to be gunfire," Meyers said.

He said he saw a female deputy running toward a victim on the ground before he and other witnesses were hustled from the scene.

The store was immediately locked down, and customers weren't being allowed to leave.

"No one is allowed in or out until further notice by police," customer Mike Lambert told KIRO-TV by phone from inside the store.

Port Orchard is about 15 miles west of Seattle across Puget Sound.

[MMARSH]

Originally Posted by dhoward

If it's too stressful, get a different job. There ARE more dangerous jobs. Really.

you mean like being a Director of Information Systems.......

[DavidI]

Well written Mike. Long time no talk my friend. Let me know when you have some time, and I'll buy you a cup, David

[jyl]

Here is the latest police shooting in my neck of the woods.

UPDATE: Manhunt continues for police shooting suspect - Breaking News, Local News, Local Weather, Local Sports

A police officer, an excellent one apparently, pulls over an SUV and is shot multiple times by the driver, who is at large in a wooded area of coastal Oregon and being hunted by SWAT teams. The officer is in the hospital, survival uncertain. It was apparently a routine traffic stop, like the dozens he probably did every week. The suspect was a normal-looking white guy. Every and any contact an officer makes with a member of the public can potentially end with his death. When we put soldiers in that situation for limited tour of duty in Iraq or Vietnam, the result is that sometimes people are killed who maybe shouldn't have been, by young men who we nonetheless respect, as a group, for their service. When we put police officers in that situation for year after year, I believe it is unrealistic for us to expect that the same thing won't sometimes happen, and unjustified for us to withhold our respect for that group of men.

[silverwhaletail]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

For example, I work in what has to be one of the penultimate uber-geek environments - that of the dual pocket protector, horn rimmed glasses (with the piece of tape in the middle), white shirted, high water pants aerospace engineer. And guess what? One would be very, very hard pressed to find one who has any respect whatsoever for cops.

It's pure jealousy, bro.

You ***** and moan about my excessive uses of force, and my contempt for the 4th amendment and the number of shootings I've been in, and the size of the wake that my boat puts out at The River and blah blah blah.

But what really pisses you off is that Chicks dig Cops. Underneath everything else, you know that its true and you simply can't deal with it.

So you get all crazy when one of us shoots somebody whom you don't think should have been shot, and the "Chicks dig Cops" thing comes roaring to the front of your consciousness.

Get over it, boy genius. It's one of God's paybacks to us for putting up with pencil necks like you.

p.s. I'm so mathematically incompetent, I have literally worn the printing off of the c/ce button of every Texas Instrument Real Estate Calculator that I have owned. FWIW, I envy the heck out of you guys that can add/subtract/multiply and divide.

For your cop-hating pleasure, I have attached a photo of my 29 year old wife taken July 4th at The Del. I'm 46. I started knocking the bottom out of her when she was 22. Chicks dig Cops.

[scoe911]

This "woman" has our sympathy...sorry Jeff I couldn't resist...

[silverwhaletail]

Originally Posted by scoe911

This "woman" has our sympathy...sorry Jeff I couldn't resist...

That's nice, but she doesn't need your sympathy. I suspect that she could buy and sell you, many times over.

take that any way that you want to.

[scoe911]

Originally Posted by silverwhaletail

That's nice, but she doesn't need your sympathy.

I disagree...lets keep in mind that she is married to "you"... a highly dysfunctional cop...

[silverwhaletail]

Originally Posted by scoe911

I disagree...lets keep in mind that she is married to "you"... a highly dysfunctional cop...

dysfunction exists in the liberal's world to serve as a an excuse for everything that has gone wrong in your life.

dysfunction has no place in my rightwing, hardcore conservative world.

principle is more important than people. That's the difference between people like you and people like me.

try some personal accountability in your life sometime. you might like it.

[scoe911]

Originally Posted by silverwhaletail

It's pure jealousy, bro.


But what really pisses you off is that Chicks dig Cops. Underneath everything else, you know that its true and you simply can't deal with it.

, and the "Chicks dig Cops" thing comes roaring to the front of your consciousness.

For your cop-hating pleasure, I have attached a photo of my 29 year old wife taken July 4th at The Del. I'm 46. I started knocking the bottom out of her when she was 22. Chicks dig Cops.

See what I mean about this guy...I just don't understand it ...and I know I'm not alone... BTW chick's dig "confident" men in "all" professions...

[Jeff Higgins]

Mrs. Whaletail in happier times:

[scoe911]

Originally Posted by silverwhaletail

try some personal accountability in your life sometime. you might like it.

I think by now my pedigree is well known by most on this forum... I mean I own my own home,trade options,and I drive a Porsche...HELLO

[Tobra]

Hey, flatfoot, don't encourage the troll.

Mr Higgins, that was a bit uncalled for now, wouldn't you agree?

Bottom line is we are doing the serving of warrants wrong. The "no knock warrants" introduce too high a risk that the wrong person is going to get shot. It puts the officer in a position of having to make life and death decisions in the blink of an eye. I have read too many instances of them not knocking on the wrong door before they kick it in. If you really are justified in doing one, throw some tear gas in there. If it catches on fire, well, that will get them to come out too. That way, you are dealing with them in the front yard, with all the cops standing behind their vehicles.

Chicks dig cops? I guess some do, that whole thing is likely predicated on the risk connected to the job. I have had to rely on my thick wavy hair, good looks and charm to pick up chicks.

As far as the friends getting killed, too many funerals. Being a LEO is dangerous, are there any that did not know that going into it?