In Cali, what does it mean when a property has a structure that is not permitted?

[KaptKaos]

Saw a house for sale in the neighborhood. Flyer says it has a workshop/spare room that is "not permitted".

I assume that before title would transfer, that the space needs to be permitted. That would mean bringing it up to code to attain a certificate of occupancy. Does that sound corrct? I have no history on the "bonus room" how it was built or why it's there. I just thought it odd and wanted to understand what it meant.

TIA

[Zeke]

I don't think a new COO is issued with each sale. If you plan to get permits for additional work, the un-permitted work may become an issue.

Title companies are interested in titles. If there were a lis pendins on the title due to work completed but not permitted/inspected, that will stop the sale. If no liens, it will fly regardless.

The City of Lakewood, CA tried at one time to inspect each home sold for code infractions and non permitted alterations/additions and abandoned the process in short order. The Realtors raised hell and the building dept couldn't keep up.

Nowadays, the building depts are really lean and have no time for this stuff. A complaint will bring out code enforcement and they may issue a citation. You can research all of this at city hall w/o raising any suspicion.

You can do a preliminary title search on your own as well just to see about the room and liens. You can research the county assessor's office too. But, I'd just make the offer contingent on the fact that the room is not a factor. If it becomes one, the owner will have to comply.

I bet in that circumstance the owner will just wait for another buyer.

BTW, stupid Realtor shouting out "no permits." That's a discussion for later as the disclosures are presented.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by KaptKaos

Saw a house for sale in the neighborhood. Flyer says it has a workshop/spare room that is "not permitted".

I assume that before title would transfer, that the space needs to be permitted. That would mean bringing it up to code to attain a certificate of occupancy. Does that sound corrct? I have no history on the "bonus room" how it was built or why it's there. I just thought it odd and wanted to understand what it meant.

TIA

Pretty much correct.

Workshop was built/converted without permit or inspection.

It does not nec need to be permitted before title is transferred.

Lack of permit may be an issue with lender. Some will not close without CO's, some will.

The problem is it can't be used/count towards value of the property.

It's quite possible that it's so out of compliance that it would need to be removed all together. That's worst case but a valid concern.

Getting it permitted should be sellers responsibility or money left in escrow till it's sorted out.

Or you could ask for reduction in selling price relative to "perceived value" of the illegal addition.

Also current taxes on the house are not correct. Keeping property taxes down are one of the reasons people don't get permits.

If you get it permitted expect taxes to go up.

[look 171]

THere's more to it then just getting the space permitted. If its on a hill, then I would say no deal with the city for any permits because engineering is required and soil testing is needed. Is it set back far enough. Does it have a foundation? Be careful with this one. I have seen lots of unpermitted additions in LA. realestate agents often give the wrong advice about getting petmits after you purchased. Sometimes that's true, but often not. Where's the house, on the flats and what city? Some cities or county is a little better then others. For example, South Pasadena will not allow you to put up gutters unless you have detail drawings and it has to be approved first before you start anything.

[tabs]

Originally Posted by look 171

For example, South Pasadena will not allow you to put up gutters unless you have detail drawings and it has to be approved first before you start anything.

Permiting Rain Gutters is absurd..but then it shows to what length cities need to raise revenue through permits and increased property taxes.

[RWebb]

having Rain Gutters shoot thru someone's body in a major storm would be unwise

at any rate, you really need to talk to the someone in the City - be sure to cover all the bases - could be both Bldg. permit and Landuse permit offices involved

[look 171]

Originally Posted by tabs

Permiting Rain Gutters is absurd..but then it shows to what length cities need to raise revenue through permits and increased property taxes.

Its isn't a poor city. Avarage home is close to a mil. They want a profile of the gutter and the type and material. Size matters a whole lot to them. Like it rains that much here in SoCal? They have been doing that crap for a long time now. They are one of those that don't want a freeway going their city.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by tabs

Permiting Rain Gutters is absurd..but then it shows to what length cities need to raise revenue through permits and increased property taxes.

No need for this thread to be hijacked, but I have to point out that the rain gutter issue is one of aesthetics, if nothing else. S. Pas does not need plastic gutters from the Home Defect.

We have the same restrictions here in 17 historic districts in Long Beach.

[tabs]

Originally Posted by look 171

Its isn't a poor city. Avarage home is close to a mil. They want a profile of the gutter and the type and material. Size matters a whole lot to them. Like it rains that much here in SoCal? They have been doing that crap for a long time now. They are one of those that don't want a freeway going their city.

I grew up in Glendora..so I know about S Pas...

Since Prop 13 in the late 70's cities have increasingly been seeking alternaive sources of revenue

[red-beard]

Un-permitted rain gutters. You have to be freaking kidding...

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by tabs

I grew up in Glendora..so I know about S Pas...

Since Prop 13 in the late 70's cities have increasingly been seeking alternaive sources of revenue

Originally Posted by red-beard

Un-permitted rain gutters. You have to be freaking kidding...

That's BS in this case. The fees paid for a simple rain gutter "Certificate of Appropriateness" don't cover the costs involved.

I live in an area that would be a semi slum if not for the "historic" status. As such, our property values for a bunch of old houses is substantially higher than counterparts in the city, even some nice homes nearby outside the district.

I didn't say I always like the restrictions or the way the Office of Historic Preservation, City of Long Beach is run.

Originally Posted by red-beard

Un-permitted rain gutters. You have to be freaking kidding...

Have you seen how bad they can look?

To try to pull this back "on" topic, I wonder how the workshop described by the OP affects the property. It could be an eyesore or it could be an enhancement in spite of its status.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

If it's non-permitted work for a space/addition, be very, very careful. You can theoretically be required to demolish the work (if the inspector is a real prick) although this is extremely rare. More likely the next time you tried to do anything and called for an inspection, it would be noticed, the records would show that there were no permits/COs for the added area and it'd be up to the inspector. Most likely he/she would perform a cursory inspection for obvious code/safety issues, require you to pay 3X the permit fee for that area and then issue a CO for it, but as said above YMMV - there may be all kinds of issues associated with it (like setback requirements, % of window glazing, energy/envelope requirements, etc.) that can bite you in the rear end if they make you take it out or redo it or bring it up to current codes.

As a general rule, if it has non-permitted work, avoid it. There are plenty of good deals out there right now to risk headaches over it.

You can always approach the AHJ proactively and say "I'm a prospective buyer for such-and-such property which supposedly has non-permitted work, what do you require to remedy this". They'll tell you and since you haven't bought it yet, there's no liability or penalty for doing so - it's just part of your due diligence, which is why you have an escrow period (to discover things like this).

Best of luck.

[KaptKaos]

Not buying. Just a neighborhood house we saw on a walk. Thought it very odd.

The bonus room is very cool too.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

If it's non-permitted work for a space/addition, be very, very careful. You can theoretically be required to demolish the work (if the inspector is a real prick) although this is extremely rare. More likely the next time you tried to do anything and called for an inspection, it would be noticed, the records would show that there were no permits/COs for the added area and it'd be up to the inspector. Most likely he/she would perform a cursory inspection for obvious code/safety issues, require you to pay 3X the permit fee for that area and then issue a CO for it, but as said above YMMV - there may be all kinds of issues associated with it (like setback requirements, % of window glazing, energy/envelope requirements, etc.) that can bite you in the rear end if they make you take it out or redo it or bring it up to current codes.

As a general rule, if it has non-permitted work, avoid it. There are plenty of good deals out there right now to risk headaches over it.

You can always approach the AHJ proactively and say "I'm a prospective buyer for such-and-such property which supposedly has non-permitted work, what do you require to remedy this". They'll tell you and since you haven't bought it yet, there's no liability or penalty for doing so - it's just part of your due diligence, which is why you have an escrow period (to discover things like this).

Best of luck.

A foundation inspection would be necessary as well. You'd have to dig down and expose the depth and show the step indicating the width. You'd need to show the bolt down plan. You'd need to expose the insulation if it's within the heated living space. You'd have to pull out all the electrical devices to show the rough make up and the list goes on depending, as Jeff said, the inspector.

Anymore, these folks are mandated to be rather thorough.

If the building/addition was built 10 years ago or sooner, it probably won't qualify for a new permit.

[AirKuhl]

In addition to all the of the good advice above, be aware that home owners insurance would most likely not cover anything un-permitted or red tagged.

[Noah930]

The reality of the situation seems to be that no one cares. Certainly not the two real estate agents involved nor the selling party. That "disclosure" is their ticket out of any future legal liability. Such as when you do try another addition years down the road and a city inspector notes the unpermitted addition and requires money and work to bring it up to snuff (and then you get to pay property taxes on that addition, too). Regardless, you--the new owner--are now on the hook for all related headaches and finances involved in rectifying the problem because you were made aware of it when you bought the property (and weren't smart enough to force the seller to make it right before you took ownership of the house).

[KaptKaos]

Originally Posted by Noah930

The reality of the situation seems to be that no one cares. Certainly not the two real estate agents involved nor the selling party. That "disclosure" is their ticket out of any future legal liability. Such as when you do try another addition years down the road and a city inspector notes the unpermitted addition and requires money and work to bring it up to snuff (and then you get to pay property taxes on that addition, too). Regardless, you--the new owner--are now on the hook for all related headaches and finances involved in rectifying the problem because you were made aware of it when you bought the property (and weren't smart enough to force the seller to make it right before you took ownership of the house).

Sharing a little personal experience there? =)

For the record: not buying it, just saw it and wasn't sure what to make of it.