voted in a union today..

[VINMAN]

A friend of mine works in a Union auto repair shop. It's really necessary.

Why? Every time they have a tough sales month they want to start firing the experienced guys that make more money. Then they hire these young techs that can't do anything but change oil and brake pads.... The union protects these guys based on seniority. The lazy guys are the young ones because they don't want to do the hard work....

Not saying they are ALL good, but some of you guys are painting with a pretty broad brush.
__________________
Chris Streit


Spot on Chris. Same situation in my industry.

I'm not a big union fan, but not all of them are evil and unnecessary

[sammyg2]

Unions totally suck ass.

IMHO, of course.

[pwd72s]

Originally Posted by rattlsnak

After a 6-7 month drive, the union was voted in at my company today.. (aviation)

I had mixed feelings about it, especially after hearing all the rants from both sides, but now thats its over, Im very glad it passed.

Basically, we are seeking job protection rights and better QOL, and no one is 'after every penny we can get'. We wouldnt even mind if no benefits change. But we want something in writing.

Hope you're a loyal liberal Democrat, because you'll be donating to their campaigns...

[VINMAN]

Paul, thats the thing that has me as the bad guy with my union, I refuse to support the candidates they back. They got all pissy when they handed me an obama shirt back then and i tossed it right in the garbage in front of them.

[Normy]

Originally Posted by lendaddy

Yea.....that's kinda the problem.

I see...so you see nothing wrong with a "race to the bottom"?

You've obviously never been to places like China, where people earn a dollar per day. But hey- They're competitive!

N!

[Normy]

I'm an ALPA member. I first became a member in 1993, and have been a member again since 2005.

ALPA is a flawed union. This thing is run like a business, and while it kind of has to be, In my humble opinion, they take it too far. For example, whenever there are contract negotiations, you can bet that the senior guys are going to get all the goodies, and the more junior [read: paying less dues...] are going to get the shaft. ALPA did an about face in 2007 and went along with the age 65 rule; Who did this benefit? Young low-paying member or OLD high paying members? You do the math-

BE THAT AS IT MAY BE....let me tell you another story. I've worked at six airlines in my career, been furloughed twice for a total of 14 months unemployed. At airline number three, a small cargo airline out of Dallas that was NON UNION, I was tasked one evening with flying a cargo Boeing 727 from Brussels to Bergamo, Italy. I was captain on the beautiful clear moonlit night, and as I flew over the Alpine mountains of Switzerland, I remember thinking what a great job I had.

"Hey Norm....we're losing oil out of number 3 engine" my engineer says and taps me on the shoulder.

We had 3 gallons one hour before at takeoff, and now we were down to 1.5 gallons. Minimum for dispatch was 2.0 gallons, but since our oil temps were way cool, I elected to leave the engine running. "Let me know if it gets down to 1.0 gallon" I said. Sure enough, 15 minutes later, he taps me and says that we are at 1 gallon. I was descending over the last of the Alps into Italy, and could see the airport 50 miles away, so I brought that engine to idle and left it there in order to preserve some oil in case we had to go-around. The approach and landing were uneventful, flown on two with one engine idling.

As I turned into my parking spot, the ground controller comes on and says "Eurotrans, be advise, you had large cloud blue smoke from rear of plane after landing". Great. Now you finally tell me I'm on fire! We parked, shut down, and when the stairs were up I ran back to the rear of the plane; oil was pouring out of number 3 engine like a garden hose at full blast! Major oil leak. The engine didn't run out of oil, so its bearings were fine, but there was obviously a blown seal somewhere. I wound up on a conference call with maintenance, the local mechanic, the Chief Pilot, and the VP of operations. Their great brainstorm neuro-surgeon idea? They wanted to fill the engine with oil [4+ gallons], and then have me ferry the plane 2 hours back to Brussels for an engine change!

Yeah right......! I almost laughed at them! Of course, I told them NO! If the FAA finds out you took an airplane that had a defect so bad that you KNEW you were going to have to shut down one of its engines en route they will tear your pilots license to shreds! Not to mention the fact that I needed that engine in order to climb over the Alps, about 25 miles north of the airport...

Their response, and I want all you anti-union types to read this carefully:

"Well, we need you to be a team player with us on this one, we feel it is safe from here in Dallas for you to fly the plane back, and well....if you can't work with us on this then we're going to have to have you come to Dallas...and well, we're going to have to reconsider your employment...."

That's right folks: I refused to do something dangerous, and they threatened to fire me. Did I mention that this job earned me a six figure income? That pays for a lot of 928 parts....

"Well, I'll tell you what. Me and my crew are tired, and we are going to the hotel. You figure out what you are going to do, and when I come out of rest, I'll call you. Good bye"

ALPA kind of sucks, but if ALPA had been on the property? They wouldn't have dared threaten me like that!

The long and short: They had a former Eastern Airlines SCAB who lived in Northern Italy with his wife, and they called him out to fly the plane to Brussels. He got over Germany and had to shut it down too. He took it to Brussels on two engines, and the FAA violated his license for it! He didn't care- he was 59 years old and about to retire anyway.

So you can see, unions are a mixed bag. They are going to take dues from you, and not always look out for your interest. But when the scheize hits the fan, they WILL back you up against management. That alone makes them well worth the costs and trouble in my point of view.

Best of luck/ Fly safe!

N!

[Porsche-O-Phile]

They are fairly paid for the value of the goods and services they provide. If you produce $1/day worth of value, that's what you should be paid. Simple.

WRT the flight, I'd tell them you're the pilot in command and the final go/no-go decision is yours. If they don't like it and want to fire you over it, then let them. Do you really want to continue to work for a company like that anyway? Can't have your cake and eat it too. The cargo outfit I flew with (also non-union) knew better. They'd always push you a little over weather ("well, go take a look and see if it's really something you can't get through") but at the end of the day if you ever exercised your authority as PIC to say "no", they backed down.

Sounds like you just happened to fly for a crappy outfit. Or had a crappy dispatcher that day.

[911Freak]

Originally Posted by Normy

I'm an ALPA member. I first became a member in 1993, and have been a member again since 2005.

ALPA is a flawed union. This thing is run like a business, and while it kind of has to be, In my humble opinion, they take it too far. For example, whenever there are contract negotiations, you can bet that the senior guys are going to get all the goodies, and the more junior [read: paying less dues...] are going to get the shaft. ALPA did an about face in 2007 and went along with the age 65 rule; Who did this benefit? Young low-paying member or OLD high paying members? You do the math-

BE THAT AS IT MAY BE....let me tell you another story. I've worked at six airlines in my career, been furloughed twice for a total of 14 months unemployed. At airline number three, a small cargo airline out of Dallas that was NON UNION, I was tasked one evening with flying a cargo Boeing 727 from Brussels to Bergamo, Italy. I was captain on the beautiful clear moonlit night, and as I flew over the Alpine mountains of Switzerland, I remember thinking what a great job I had.

"Hey Norm....we're losing oil out of number 3 engine" my engineer says and taps me on the shoulder.

We had 3 gallons one hour before at takeoff, and now we were down to 1.5 gallons. Minimum for dispatch was 2.0 gallons, but since our oil temps were way cool, I elected to leave the engine running. "Let me know if it gets down to 1.0 gallon" I said. Sure enough, 15 minutes later, he taps me and says that we are at 1 gallon. I was descending over the last of the Alps into Italy, and could see the airport 50 miles away, so I brought that engine to idle and left it there in order to preserve some oil in case we had to go-around. The approach and landing were uneventful, flown on two with one engine idling.

As I turned into my parking spot, the ground controller comes on and says "Eurotrans, be advise, you had large cloud blue smoke from rear of plane after landing". Great. Now you finally tell me I'm on fire! We parked, shut down, and when the stairs were up I ran back to the rear of the plane; oil was pouring out of number 3 engine like a garden hose at full blast! Major oil leak. The engine didn't run out of oil, so its bearings were fine, but there was obviously a blown seal somewhere. I wound up on a conference call with maintenance, the local mechanic, the Chief Pilot, and the VP of operations. Their great brainstorm neuro-surgeon idea? They wanted to fill the engine with oil [4+ gallons], and then have me ferry the plane 2 hours back to Brussels for an engine change!

Yeah right......! I almost laughed at them! Of course, I told them NO! If the FAA finds out you took an airplane that had a defect so bad that you KNEW you were going to have to shut down one of its engines en route they will tear your pilots license to shreds! Not to mention the fact that I needed that engine in order to climb over the Alps, about 25 miles north of the airport...

Their response, and I want all you anti-union types to read this carefully:

"Well, we need you to be a team player with us on this one, we feel it is safe from here in Dallas for you to fly the plane back, and well....if you can't work with us on this then we're going to have to have you come to Dallas...and well, we're going to have to reconsider your employment...."

That's right folks: I refused to do something dangerous, and they threatened to fire me. Did I mention that this job earned me a six figure income? That pays for a lot of 928 parts....

"Well, I'll tell you what. Me and my crew are tired, and we are going to the hotel. You figure out what you are going to do, and when I come out of rest, I'll call you. Good bye"

ALPA kind of sucks, but if ALPA had been on the property? They wouldn't have dared threaten me like that!

The long and short: They had a former Eastern Airlines SCAB who lived in Northern Italy with his wife, and they called him out to fly the plane to Brussels. He got over Germany and had to shut it down too. He took it to Brussels on two engines, and the FAA violated his license for it! He didn't care- he was 59 years old and about to retire anyway.

So you can see, unions are a mixed bag. They are going to take dues from you, and not always look out for your interest. But when the scheize hits the fan, they WILL back you up against management. That alone makes them well worth the costs and trouble in my point of view.

Best of luck/ Fly safe!

N!

Sounds a lot like my FILs experience/stories when he was a PIC for Connie K back in the day flying freight in L1011s etc.... from the sound of it he was/is a dreadful guy to work for...
He always wanted to get on with the purple plane but got to old before a decent opportunity came up.. mixed bag for sure

OTOH my brother is a union rep for commercial food workers (UFCW), what a bunch of DB their leadership was, most of the worst ones got blown out after/during a merger, corrupt as can be from what I heard... ex: they tried to forced him to contribute to campaigns for the union prez (3k+) and busted his balls when he hesitated, ultimately they got their money out of him (rather out of the mouths of his kids). They are in tighter then a tick with the CA politicians playing billions of deals out between themselves...

But he stayed on, he does some good for workers sometimes, but from what he tells me he mostly has to defend a lot of lazy no good workers and deal with a lot of BS most of the time, it's aged him years.

We don't talk about politics or unions around the Turkey anymore

[island911]

Originally Posted by madmmac

No one in America from McDonald's on up would be making what they are if it were not from what Unions had done in the past.

and what have they done for us lately?

Maybe that's what you're getting at. (?)

The Q (for any group of workers) is; will the parasitic affects of unions negate the potential gains (and then some)? . . . that seems to be the recent norm for most.

[CROWSC]

Now you are paying someone for a job.
Now you get to see the guys with the $2000.00 suits
that you and your brothers paid for.
The only thing that they protect in the end is thier arse.
Unoins suck!!!!!!

[MBAtarga]

Originally Posted by madmmac

No one in America from McDonald's on up would be making what they are and having benefits packages such as they do, if it were not from what Unions had done in the early 20th century - but have not had much of a reason to survive since.

Edited for MHO.

[rattlsnak]

Ha! The aviation guys know exactly what its like in this business without a union! I agree, that *most* unions do protect slackers and can easily run companies into the ground but in avaition, it truly is different. This isnt about protecting weak employees, its about job security. The comments saying, "just leave if you dont like it", etc are totally undoable. Aviation is one of the few industries in which if you leave a company, you start at another at the absolute bottom. Yes, after 20 years working you could be making $200K at American Airlines, be number 200 on the seniority list, have great schedules, leave for whatever reason, and start at Delta and you would be the absolute bottom of the seniority list, with crappy pay, schedules and now making $35K a year. No lateral moves in this industry. Thats why making your current company the best it can be is totally worth the effort. Our union drive was more about job protection than benefits. Stories like Normys are rampant in this industry. Without a union, if that happened here, (which it does from time to time), you absolutely would have been fired with NO recourse.

LeeH, I totally agree that SKW is a great place to work but ask your wife why she flys the same airplanes that ASA does (also owned by SKW Inc.) for less money and has less benefits, etc. They sold their souls on the promise of growth etc, but ASA refused and the union protected them. In the end, they both got growth, etc, but who got the better end of the deal? They also just bought EXJ and if they didnt have a union, they would have been TOTALLY screwed by that merger with ASA. (Thats the short story.)

[A930Rocket]

My grandfather used to tell me about a 50 cal machine gun he kept on the roof of the textile plant (Alabama in the 20's - 30's)) where he was manager.

It sure kept the rif-raf organizers out he said.

[944Larry]

I'm not union. I'm on a non-union job in PA. The super came around today and said that they had wind some union guy would be on the ROW looking for union members working on a non-union job. If caught, they would lose their union book and be fined. They needed to park somewhere else for a few days. If non-union, we could carry on as usual. Sreange rules!

[Normy]

Originally Posted by CROWSC

Now you are paying someone for a job.
Now you get to see the guys with the $2000.00 suits
that you and your brothers paid for.
The only thing that they protect in the end is thier arse.
Unoins suck!!!!!!

Ok, then tomorrow I want you to place your spouse and kids on a plane owned by that airline I flew for. You know, the one that threatened to fire its pilots if they refused to fly a plane with a dangerous defect....

Come on, lets see you do it! Put your money [family] where your mouth is-

N!

[madmmac]

No one in America from McDonald's on up would be making what they are and having benefits and retirement packages such as they do, if it were not from what Unions had done...

Much less the industrial, mining and other safety regulations and regulators that came from the Unions.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

And as said above, if the market doesn't support making those wages, they shouldn't get them. Plain and simple. I have no problem with it. And I have no problem flying for a non-union carrier and would do it again.

Bottom line is if you don't feel confident enough in your own skills, ability and training to work a particular job or career without some union stooge protecting you, then you (1) probably are not very good at that job and (2) shouldn't be doing it. If more people thought this way it'd reduce the supply of people willing to work in certain industries and/or for certain companies with bad reputations for how the treat their people and prices/salaries would adjust accordingly. Additionally since there would be fewer people willing to work for those outfits, they'd (by necessity) be forced to rethink their position with respect to how they treat employees. Amazing thing that free market and its self-correcting mechanisms!

Unions suck. Nothing more than thuggish extortionists who defend ineptitude and incompetence. Total catalysts for a race to the bottom. I have no use for them - none. And I go out of my way to not use union labor to the extent possie in my jobs.

I feel for the folks who ARE good at what they do and are forced to sign on to these should-be-criminal gangs. EVERY state should be "right to work". If they were, you'd see very quickly who the good people are and who the leeches/opportunists are - the ones who would be pumping gas or washing dishes rather than pulling down $50 or $60 an hour for adequate or even sub-par work... You know, the kinds of jobs they'd actually deserve based on their work ethic, ability, skill set and/or confidence.

Market manipulation. We don't need it. If you "need" a union to protect your job then you don't deserve to be working it - plain and simple.

[rattlsnak]

So you have no problem busting FARs to satisfy the needs of the company?

[930LDR]

Originally Posted by rattlsnak

Yes, after 20 years working you could be making $200K at American Airlines, be number 200 on the seniority list, have great schedules, leave for whatever reason, and start at Delta and you would be the absolute bottom of the seniority list, with crappy pay, schedules and now making $35K a year. No lateral moves in this industry.

I'd be willing to bet that much of this is a result of union activities and work rules...

[Embraer]

Originally Posted by rattlsnak

So you have no problem busting FARs to satisfy the needs of the company?

He was a 135 guy. That explains everything.