When did we stop "doing"?

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by einreb

For those that havent read it, "Shop Class as Soulcraft" is a good read for those pondering this question...

Shop Class as Soulcraft by Matthew B. Crawford

Interesting in that my son's summer job this year was as an apprentice at a friend of mines independent auto repair shop.

He did great and loved it.

[regency]

Work, Of all the people that live here on my street, I seem to be the only guy that washes the cars, mows the lawn & takes care of the pool. Everybody else has a service.

Another view, recently, I hired a friend's son ( home from college for the Summer ) as a general laborer. We were grading and digging out roots for a new lawn install job and we all laughed watching the "college boy" attempt to "work". It was clear he had never, ever had to really work.

Steve

73 911 T MFI Coupe, Aubergine

[jcommin]

We stopped doing allot of things as technology advances. Technology freed up more time to do other things.

Household appliances
letter writing
power tools
wireless communication devices

This list could be endless.

It will continue to evolve. The question as much as our lifestyle has improved and things maybe easier, will it continue or will we have class warfare because only those who have will be able to afford them?

[scottmandue]

Originally Posted by nostatic

I'd like to keep this out of parf. Been looking around at the world and I am thinking that our problem isn't left or right, but rather that we no longer are a nation (world?) of doers. Instead we watch.

Curse you free Internet porn!

I also do my own plumbing and electrical around the house because contractors are so darn expensive.

Also change my own oil but seems like a fools errand... when Iffy lube will do it for $20.

[Christien]

Very interesting discussion. I think one thing to keep in mind here is that we've worked very hard to create a world of leisure. We fought wars and spent countless money on R&D to create a safe, free world where technology would provide us with more leisure time, and the money to afford luxuries. So let's think about that before we complain about it. It's not like this wasn't planned. That said, I don't think the negative consequences of this world were considered as we worked towards it, and now we're discovering what happens when we open pandora's box.

I do prefer to do things myself, within my limits of time and capabilities. For example, I do absolutely everything I can on my car, because I enjoy it, but there are times when I realize something is beyond my capabilities, so it goes into the shop. Usually that has to do with specialized tools (wheel balancing, for example). I also know I'm really bad at plumbing. I can fix a leaky faucet, but anything beyond that and I tend to make problems much worse, so I'll call a plumber.

A few weeks ago my brother in law gave us their old above-ground pool. They moved and didn't have room for it in their new yard. I hummed and hawed over actually installing it, or just tossing it on kijiji, until I realized that my only reason for now wanting to put it up was not wanting to level out a section of the backyard. I said to myself 'self, you're just being lazy - suck it up!'. I'm off to rent the rototiller this weekend.

[LeeH]

I think we're the last generation of "doers." I remember working on cars with my dad, building out the basement, working in the yard, splitting wood etc. It's just what we did. My mom made the curtains in our house and even the bed-spreads. Food was made at home and eating out was a rare treat.

The result is that I'm another who hates to pay anyone to do anything. At some point, projects exceed my abilities, but after successfully rebuilding a Porsche engine in my garage it's hard to say something is too hard.

If I do pay someone to do work it's usually a matter of their hourly rate vs mine, but sometimes it's just time. Could I remodel a bathroom? Yes. I've done it before. Do I want to spend all of my spare time over who knows how many weeks doing that sort of thing? Not any more.

[strupgolf]

When was the last time you saw a bunch of kids playing a baseball game in a city park? I know it's a long time for me. When growing up in the 50's-60's, it seemed each day it was a ball game or to the city pool, or if raining, playing with slot cars or trains, models, things that took some thought and skills and use of hands. Today, kids are soft.

[Jared at Pelican Parts]

Originally Posted by Grady Clay

It seems the answer is US – the Pelicans who know how to DO.
We are the teachers and examples.
We are the fixers who know how to do.

When I had my Porsche business, we were doers. We engineered things. We built things. We fixed things. We got things done.

After I retired, I took up volunteer teaching and raising kids, we were doers. We engineered things. We built things. We fixed things. We got things done.
My kids know carpentry, plumbing, electrical, auto mechanics and (consequently) far more than their college degrees.
…and it has paid off in their lives.

+1

The other day, my roommate came home and the door panel nearly fell off the inside of his driver's door. I asked him what the problem was and he said that he was going to take it to the dealer to have it fixed.

It took me 30 seconds with a screwdriver to re-align the plastic clips and pop the panel back on. He was ready to spend dealer rates to have that fixed. Incredible.

[nostatic]

Small data point. My son is forced to take piano lessons (oh, the horror!). His teacher has him writing original music - and he has to write the charts (ok, that is horror). He has been writing by hand but his teacher suggested I get Sibelius running (a computer program) to make it cleaner/easier. You can play your keyboard and the computer will chart what you play. You also can point/click the notes on the screen. His teacher is in her 20's (and smokin' hot - but I digress). While I did eventually set that rig up, I pushed back a bit and said that I wanted him to chart things by hand as well. When I taught chemistry I stressed that you have to rewrite the problem and draw every step out by hand - that the act of drawing/writing helped your brain engage and problem solve. Same with charting music by hand - writing it makes a difference, even over computer charting where you type.

Many years ago I wrote about the digital transition (which I peg at 1995) and the fact that there are myriad deep consequences that we have yet to really understand. I think we're starting to see them crop up now...

[scottmandue]

My robot can beat up your robot...

Originally Posted by Christien

Very interesting discussion. I think one thing to keep in mind here is that we've worked very hard to create a world of leisure. We fought wars and spent countless money on R&D to create a safe, free world where technology would provide us with more leisure time.

Oh the irony! We worked so hard to create technology to give us free time... but technology has/is eating all all free time! Internet, smartphones, texting, and 200 channels on TV!

When I was a kid we vacationed... In Kansas where my grandparents lived... and we drove there, without video game, DVD's, or MP3 players... we had to (gasp) look out the window at the scenery or play card games.

My brothers kids grew up vacationing in Hawaii, that doesn't suck but I feel bad because they will never know what it was like to catch frogs in a drainage ditch, ride a horse without a saddle, or catch fireflies in a jar.

[AirKuhl]

This is a good conversation to have. I'll go ahead and be the dissenting voice just to keep it interesting.

Last night one of our toilets finally failed. It was a cheapo that came with the house. I have already swapped out the other two myself in past years. It was a foul job that I hated. This time I am paying someone to come and do it for me. I know how to do it. I've done it before. But I'm not doing it again.

I paid someone to landscape our yard. His crew came in and planted trees and bushes in gopher baskets, ran all the irrigation and sprinkler systems, put down weed matting. I also know how to do all that and have done it before. Never again.

"Doing" changes over time. "Doing" does not always equal manual labor. I started a company once that employed highly skilled engineers. I worked 80 hours a week but I never "did" anything. My employees worked hard as well even though they were sitting in front of computers.

The hours I spend working is not "doing" as per this thread, but it pays a hell of a lot better. When I stop doing what I do, I want to relax. So I pay others to "do" things. Why is that bad? It keeps them employed and gives me leisure time and thus happiness. Sometimes I spend my free time watching TV, or rebuilding the interior of my car, or building a shed or drinking beer and playing guitar. They are all equally fine because I do them for fun. They are all "doing" as far as I'm concerned.

[Jim Richards]

Originally Posted by scottmandue

My robot can beat up your robot!

Meh.

[Zeke]

I've read all these posts and everything has been pointed out except...

most of the non doers sure seem to know how to do everything.

Just ask them.

[scottmandue]

Yes there is a time and place for us "doers" to farm out the more tedious jobs as we become more "mature".

I paid someone to paint the interior of my front house... I have done it twice before between renters but I was busy and just didn't have the time to do it myself... my friend over charged me and did a lousy job but such is life.

Growing up I hated my dad for making me work on the family cars and helping him do repairs around the house.

Now I thank him that I can do repairs around my house without having to call someone in.

My dad is 84 and just laid a new floor in the family room at their house... but when the deck needed to be rebuilt he called in a contractor.

[silverc4s]

I spent my early working years (20's & 30's) in a high tech manufacturing environment. Surrounded by some very bright, one might even say mechanical & electronic geniuses (genii?) that worked every day with their hands, and were amply rewarded for their skills and talents. This was circa 1960 to 1980 or so.
In that time, I saw US companies go from very domestic in focus, to more international, then from manufacturing/ product focus, to marketing/service focus in most things. Saw the manufacturing core of the USA hollowed out, as nobody fought to keep those jobs here, they just moved on to "other things". I am guilty of this myself, so I understand how it can happen.
Transition from Engineering, to Marketing, to Sales, to Sales Management, to Management, etc. away you go.
I look around now, and the main manufacturing companies in the US are Japan or European based, in Automotive, Chemical, Healthcare products, etc.
Skilled labor is no longer valued, desk jobs are the norm, and it will be very hard to go backwards from here.
I hope this makes sense, I am kind of rambling, but this is an area of great concern to me these days.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by AirKuhl

This time I am paying someone to come and do it for me. I know how to do it. I've done it before. But I'm not doing it again.

I also know how to do all that and have done it before. Never again.


The hours I spend working is not "doing" as per this thread, but it pays a hell of a lot better. When I stop doing what I do, I want to relax. So I pay others to "do" things. Why is that bad?

Sometimes I spend my free time watching TV, or rebuilding the interior of my car, or building a shed or drinking beer and playing guitar. They are all equally fine because I do them for fun. They are all "doing" as far as I'm concerned.

At the risk of sounding like Frank Sinatra, the key is you know how to do (be do be do)...most kids today never get to the first do.

Music. My wife is a very good musician, piano and organ. We also forced the kids to play an instrument. My son is very good, but began to feel that playing in the concert band wasn't up to his standard of cool (varsity sports letter as a freshman, etc.).

My advice to him was that if he planned on driving, he may want to explore keeping his first chair in the concert band.

It now seems that the school he wants to attend values the arts as much as they value his legs.

I really believe hard work is learned either from necessity, by direction or from desire for more.

[AirKuhl]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

At the risk of sounding like Frank Sinatra, the key is you know how to do (be do be do)...most kids today never get to the first do.

Music. My wife is a very good musician, piano and organ. We also forced the kids to play an instrument. My son is very good, but began to feel that playing in the concert band wasn't up to his standard of cool (varsity sports letter as a freshman, etc.).

My advice to him was that if he planned on driving, he may want to explore keeping his first chair in the concert band.

It now seems that the school he wants to attend values the arts as much as they value his legs.

I really believe hard work is learned either from necessity, by direction or from desire for more.

Yeah, very well said. We still do a lot of stuff just because I want my kids to learn how to do it.

I don't push them too hard on things that they should enjoy though. I used to be a professional musician but I don't force my kids to play. I play because one day I just realized that there is nothing in the world I'd rather do. On the flip side of that, my parents are really into gardening and had almost a quarter acre of just vegetable gardens, along with several smaller flower beds, paths, etc. They pushed me so hard to work on all that stuff that to this day I still don't like gardening.

[Superman]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

Too many kids go to college. I think the stat is 70% of kids attend college at some point. We have lost sight that blue collar jobs are just as valuable as white collar jobs.

I was, at least until recently, and for twenty years, in the construction industry. You may be as surprised as I was to hear and discover that marketing those careers is like pulling teeth. Kids don't want to go into the construction industry. Too dirty. The work is largely outside. It's not glamorous. They want to be video game testers, I guess. And our education system is 100% geared toward preparing kids for college. There is no part of our education system that ushers young people into construction. And here's the deal: Those jobs are great jobs. A plumber/pipefitter in my area who works full time all year would make $140,000. That's in addition to the massive benefits package and assumes no overtime is worked. OT is double the usual wage. And last but not least......construction jobs cannot be outsourced. We're going to need plumbers, electricians, equipment operators (how fun is that), carpenters, sheet metal workers, tile setters, blah blah. Somebody's going to develop those skills and they will make money hand over fist, building stuff, until they retire.

[widgeon13]

Doing is inversely proportional to government giving.

[Eric 951]

Interesting thread. I notice alot of younger folks projecting a sense of (undeserved) entitlement. I have firiends who have recently graduated college, and since their graduation have not really done anything. Their line of thinking is "I graduated college, so I deserve "x" amount of money as a starting salary" Which is true to a point, but when they "researched" the salaries of the positions which they were entering, there were posted ranges. Most thought that the "starting" salary was beneath them, instead angling for the middle of the spectrum. They didn't want to start at the bottom and work their way to a point, they wanted to start at the middle, and then can't understand how they didn't land the job with their salary(and benefit/vacation) demands.

As for "doing", one of the bigger reasons I like doing things myself is that I know it will be right and I don't have to second guess or nitpick the work of others. If I pay for a service, I can be overly critical, because I will notice things differ from how I would do it. Probably a bit OCD, as my wife tells me, but I was always taught "do it right the first time".

We just returned from the Fl Keys for an anniversary vacation. The toilet in the lower bathroom of the house in which we were staying had the tank overfill the first night. I caught it pretty qucikly and did a quick clean-up. The house is in an awesome location and is a vacation home which belongs to friends that always give us a killer deal. I could have easily just called them and they would have had a plumber come out asap to fix it. Instead, I took the tank plumbing apart, properly adjusted the float valve(it was set too high and hit the top of the tank which prevented it from shutting off the water flow, which in turn would overflow the tank), checked the seals, re-routed the flush arm so it cleared the valve/fill tube, etc. and had it back together in an hour. I just wouldn't have felt right if the owners had to call a plumber and was glad that I could do something to help them out since they always hook us up.

Sorry for the long post, but I really like "getting my hands dirty" and actually "doing".