NJ Ammo ban

[flatbutt]

A new bill for NJ gun control by limiting ammunition. This time by trying to ban armor piercing rounds. I have no issue with that but there does seem to be a backdoor. Towit

"or (b) after testing, the Attorney General determines poses a threat to the safety and well being of law enforcement officers because of the materials, be they metallic or nonmetallic, used in its composition or because its ogive, core or jacket are of a design, construction or formulation which makes it capable of ...."

So if the AG says it's so then it is. The other bit that seems troublesome is ammo that can be fired in both handguns and rifles. So .22LR may become banned?

Also g(2) has me puzzled. If the ammo is banned why may I keep it at home?
note I had to delete some text to meet the post limit.
What do you guys think?

ASSEMBLY, No. 588


STATE OF NEW JERSEY

215th LEGISLATURE

SYNOPSIS

Prohibits possession of ammunition capable of penetrating body armor.



An Act concerning certain ammunition and amending N.J.S.2C:39-3.



Be It Enacted by the Senate and General Assembly of the State of New Jersey:



1. N.J.S.2C:39-3 is amended to read as follows:

2C:39-3. Prohibited Weapons and Devices.

a. Destructive devices. Any person who knowingly has in his possession any destructive device is guilty of a crime of the third degree.

b. Sawed-off shotguns. Any person who knowingly has in his possession any sawed-off shotgun is guilty of a crime of the third degree.

c. Silencers. Any person who knowingly has in his possession any firearm silencer is guilty of a crime of the fourth degree.

d. Defaced firearms. Any person who knowingly has in his possession any firearm which has been defaced, except an antique firearm or an antique handgun, is guilty of a crime of the fourth degree.

e. Certain weapons. Any person who knowingly has in his possession any gravity knife, switchblade knife, dagger, dirk, stiletto, billy, blackjack, metal knuckle, sandclub, slingshot, cestus or similar leather band studded with metal filings or razor blades imbedded in wood, ballistic knife, without any explainable lawful purpose, is guilty of a crime of the fourth degree.

f. Dum-dum or body armor penetrating bullets. (1) Any person, other than a law enforcement officer or persons engaged in activities pursuant to subsection f. of N.J.S.2C:39-6, who knowingly has in his possession any hollow nose or dum-dum bullet, or (2) any person, other than a collector of firearms or ammunition as curios or relics as defined in Title 18, United States Code, section 921 (a) (13) and has in his possession a valid Collector of Curios and Relics License issued by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, who knowingly has in his possession any body armor breaching or penetrating ammunition, which means: (a) ammunition primarily designed for use in a handgun, and (b) which is comprised of a bullet whose core or jacket, if the jacket is thicker than .025 of an inch, is made of tungsten carbide, or hard bronze, or other material which is harder than a rating of 72 or greater on the Rockwell B. Hardness Scale, and (c) is therefore capable of breaching or penetrating body armor, or (3) any person, other than a law enforcement officer, who knowingly has in his possession handgun ammunition which (a) has a full metal jacket and an ogive with a steel penetrator tip followed by an aluminum core and is therefore capable of breaching or penetrating body armor, or (b) after testing, the Attorney General determines poses a threat to the safety and well being of law enforcement officers because of the materials, be they metallic or nonmetallic, used in its composition or because its ogive, core or jacket are of a design, construction or formulation which makes it capable of breaching or penetrating body armor, is guilty of a crime of the fourth degree. ...
g. Exceptions. (1) Nothing in subsection a., b., c., d., e., f., j. or k. of this section shall apply to any member of the Armed Forces of the United States or the National Guard, or except as otherwise provided, to any law enforcement officer while actually on duty or traveling to or from an authorized place of duty, provided that his possession of the prohibited weapon or device has been duly authorized under the applicable laws, regulations or military or law enforcement orders. Nothing in subsection h. of this section shall apply to any law enforcement officer who is exempted from the provisions of that subsection by the Attorney General. ....
(2) a. Nothing in subsection f. (1) shall be construed to prevent a person from keeping such ammunition at his dwelling, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, or from carrying such ammunition from the place of purchase to said dwelling or land, nor shall subsection f. (1) be construed to prevent any licensed retail or wholesale firearms dealer from possessing such ammunition at its licensed premises, provided that the seller of any such ammunition shall maintain a record of the name, age and place of residence of any purchaser who is not a licensed dealer, together with the date of sale and quantity of ammunition sold.

b. Nothing in subsection f. (1) shall be construed to prevent a designated employee or designated licensed agent for a nuclear power plant .....
(3) Nothing in paragraph (2) or (3) of subsection f. or in subsection j. shall be construed to prevent any licensed retail or wholesale firearms dealer from possessing that ammunition or large capacity ammunition magazine at its licensed premises for sale or disposition to another licensed dealer, the Armed Forces of the United States or the National Guard, or to a law enforcement agency, provided that the seller maintains a record of any sale or disposition to a law enforcement agency.
(4) Nothing in subsection a. of this section shall be construed to apply to antique cannons as exempted in subsection d. of N.J.S.2C:39-6.

(5) Nothing in subsection c. of this section shall be construed to apply to any person who is specifically identified in a special deer management permit issued by the Division of Fish and Wildlife to utilize a firearm silencer as part of an alternative deer control method implemented in accordance with a special deer management permit issued pursuant to section 4 of P.L.2000, c.46 (C.23:4-42.6), while the person is in the actual performance of the permitted alternative deer control method and while going to and from the place where the permitted alternative deer control method is being utilized. This exception shall not, however, otherwise apply to any person to authorize the purchase or possession of a firearm silencer.

h. Stun guns. Any person who knowingly has in his possession any stun gun is guilty of a crime of the fourth degree.

i. Nothing in subsection e. of this section shall be construed to prevent any guard in the employ of a private security company, who is licensed .....

j. Any person who knowingly has in his possession a large capacity ammunition magazine is guilty of a crime of the fourth degree unless the person has registered an assault firearm pursuant to section 11 of P.L.1990, c.32 (C.2C:58-12) and the magazine is maintained and used in connection with participation in competitive shooting matches sanctioned by the Director of Civilian Marksmanship of the United States Department of the Army.

k. Handcuffs. Any person who knowingly has in his possession handcuffs as defined in P.L.1991, c.437 (C.2C:39-9.2), under circumstances not manifestly appropriate for such lawful uses as handcuffs may have, is guilty of a disorderly persons offense. A
law enforcement officer shall confiscate handcuffs possessed in violation of the law.

(cf: P.L.2003, c.168, s.1)



2. This act shall take effect immediately.





STATEMENT



This bill would make the possession of a new generation of handgun ammunition which poses a special threat to the law enforcement community because it has a capacity to breach or penetrate body armor a crime of the fourth degree.

Under current federal and State law, hollow nose or dum-dum bullets are prohibited, as are bullets which are Teflon-coated or which have specially hardened metal jackets or cores.

Police officers recently encountered a new and highly destructive bullet. The SS190AP ammunition for the Five-seveN Tactical handgun is uniquely designed. It is a full metal jacketed bullet, but utilizes two metal inserts. The tip of the bullet has a steel penetrator which is followed by an aluminum core. The weight relationship between the two metals causes the bullet to tumble in soft body tissue, resulting in massive and, in many instances, deadly wounds.

But it is not just the substantial body trauma these bullets can cause that makes them a special threat to the law enforcement community. When fired from the Five-seveN handgun, the SS190AP bullet can penetrate 48 layers of Kevlar (the protective material used to make many types of body armor).
Cognizant that future technological and scientific advances might give rise to a new generation of equally dangerous and destructive ammunition, the bill prohibits the possession of any ammunition which the Attorney General, after testing, determines to be a threat to the law enforcement community because its design, composition, construction or formulation makes it capable of breaching or penetrating body armor by a person other than a law enforcement officer, member of the armed forces or licensed dealers who sell them to the military or law enforcement agencies.

[Joeaksa]

Think you guys need to vote some idiots out of office.

This is how it starts, first with one type of ammo, then the next and finally unless you have a permit and reason to have ammo, its not allowed.

They tried to ban guns and were not successful, so now they are working on ammo. Stand today with the NRA and keep this from happening or someday you will not have any choice...

[GG Allin]

Illinois is goofy, but not that goofy. No NFA & no CC here but that's it.

[Zeke]

NFA ?

Question: can I buy .22LR without ID and prints in CA?

[GG Allin]

Originally Posted by Zeke

NFA ?

Suppressors, SBR's ya know, all the goodies banned in the Nation Firearms Act of 1934.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by flatbutt

A new bill for NJ gun control by limiting ammunition. This time by trying to ban armor piercing rounds. I have no issue with that but there does seem to be a backdoor. Towit

You have no issue with that? Just about every hunting rifle round will cut through most body armor like a hot knife through soft butter. Is this really a problem in NJ? And will criminals be deterred by it?

I got one of those orange steel spinner targets at Cabela's once that was rated for up to .44 mag. I hit it with a .223 and almost destroyed it. These "cop killer bullets" laws are a complete joke. The people who write them probably have no idea what they're talking about, but the gun grabber folks appreciate it just the same.

[9dreizig]

won't a nosler tipped 375 H and H or other such big game caliper go through damn near anything ??

[flatbutt]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

You have no issue with that? Just about every hunting rifle round will cut through most body armor like a hot knife through soft butter. Is this really a problem in NJ? And will criminals be deterred by it?

I got one of those orange steel spinner targets at Cabela's once that was rated for up to .44 mag. I hit it with a .223 and almost destroyed it. These "cop killer bullets" laws are a complete joke. The people who write them probably have no idea what they're talking about, but the gun grabber folks appreciate it just the same.

that's my ignorance Rick. Thanks for the correction.

[Rick Lee]

Ironically, the hollowpoints cops carry in NJ (and just about all cops and ccw'ers carry in other states) are a felony in NJ for anyone else to possess. And they'd be the ammo least likely to penetrate body armor. So what's left in NJ? Shotgun shells and frangible pistol ammo? Yeah, the bad guys will stick to that.

[cstreit]

Originally Posted by mbrouder

Illinois is goofy, but not that goofy. No NFA & no CC here but that's it.

That's where you're wrong. REad THIS: New Anti-Gun Laws Proposed In Illinois

HB 1855 empowers the State of Illinois to revoke the Firearm Owner’s Identification Card of any person who fails to report the loss or theft of a handgun within 72 hours of becoming aware of that loss or theft. If HB 1855 becomes law, Illinois citizens have three days to tell police that a pistol was lost or stolen, or they lose their FOID card.

The second proposed law is HB 1924, and it should sound pretty familiar by now. After it is signed into law, Illinois residents will have 90 days to provide proof of ownership such as a bill of sale or a receipt for each semi-automatic assault weapon, assault weapon attachment, any .50 caliber rifle, and any .50 caliber cartridge. Oh, and any large capacity ammunition feeding device holding more than 10 rounds of ammo.

The third bill filed by Representative Acevedo is HB 1599—which would increase the penalties by one class (more years in jail) for possessing a semi-automatic assault weapon or, get this, high-capacity ammunition.

[flatbutt]

Did you guys read g2? Seems to me it says I can have it at home. But if it is a felony to own it how can I have it at home?

[VINMAN]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

Ironically, the hollow points cops carry in NJ (and just about all cops and ccw'ers carry in other states) are a felony in NJ for anyone else to possess. And they'd be the ammo least likely to penetrate body armor. So what's left in NJ? Shotgun shells and frangible pistol ammo? Yeah, the bad guys will stick to that.

Its funny that i can legally purchase hollowpoints here, but I am not allowed to posses them. Typical jersey logic.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Sometimes the midwest is a wonderful place.

[red-beard]

Flatbutt, can't you move to PA?

[jyl]

Skimmed this law. Applies to pistol ammo, not rifle ammo. Not sure why you think .22LR would be affected, it won't. You can buy armour-defeating ammo for home defense, but can't carry it on the street.

[legion]

Both handguns and rifles are made in the same caliber for the following calibers (incomplete list):

.17 HMR
.22 LR
.22 Mag
.223 Rem
.357 Mag / .38 Special
9mm
.40 S&W
.45 ACP
.50 Beowulf

What is "armor piercing"? .22LR can defeat a medieval suit of armor or chain mail.

Most cheap Russian ammo has a steel core, which could also be considered "armor piercing".

Anything handloaded or +P could be considered "armor piercing".

What this bill really does is to give the AG the ability to arbitrarily ban any ammo.

[Jim Bremner]

Originally Posted by Zeke

NFA ?

Question: can I buy .22LR without ID and prints in CA?

hell, I'll give you a few hundred.


One is legal to step up to the counter and ask for all the ammo that one can afford and if you pay with cash no id needed

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by jyl

Skimmed this law. Applies to pistol ammo, not rifle ammo. Not sure why you think .22LR would be affected, it won't. You can buy armour-defeating ammo for home defense, but can't carry it on the street.

Home defense is where you'd most likely want non-armor-penetrating ammo. I don't want any bullet I fire to make it out of the house and, preferably, not past the drywall in the room I'm shooting in. And what armor-piercing ammo is there for pistols except for some of the bi-metal jacketed stuff from Russia? I don't even think that would do it unless, perhaps in .357 or .44 mag, maybe 10mm or 357SIG. And it'd have to be roundnose, not JHP or SWC.

[Rick V]

There is a reason we put NJ right there next to NYC. ( I am from that area before you start the flames)
When are the people who think up this crap going to realize that only the law abiding citizens are going to follow the laws they enact and these are the same people that they do not need to worry about.
I am watching the laws in different states and seeing them going in polar opposite directions. AZ has made some of the most lax laws for their residents, Va is going to repeal the one hand gun a month law and looking at no background check for long guns ( I don't agree with that one and doubt it will pass but it is being considered)
If NJ gets it's way the only people who will have the ability to protect themselves are the thugs they are trying to stop.

[jyl]

Rick Lee said

"And what armor-piercing ammo is there for pistols except for some of the bi-metal jacketed stuff from Russia? I don't even think that would do it unless, perhaps in .357 or .44 mag, maybe 10mm or 357SIG. And it'd have to be roundnose, not JHP or SWC"

There is AP ammo in pistol calibers, but as it is illegal to import or sell by federal law, you won't run into it unless you're really looking and ready to spend a lot of money.

Some states also ban AP ammo for pistols. The list I found: Alabama, California, Connecticut, Indiana, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, Michigan, Mississippi, Oklahoma, Tennessee, and Texas.

As far as I can tell, the "new" and/or controversial thing about the proposed law is that the AG can conduct testing to determine additional types of ammunition to be armour piercing. Beyond the current definition (penetrator core, specific materials, etc).

I personally think it makes conceptual sense that some sorts of ammunition can be controlled. Hypothetically, suppose there was 9mm ammo with poison gas - hard to argue it shouldn't be controlled. Whether AP ammo deserves controlling, I don't have any view. I'm pretty deeply uninterested in the stuff.