rant on education & culture

[id10t]

See the "This is why you need an education" thread and others for a primer. This is my rant... hopefully I will give a few points for consideration, and watch the responses flow...

Education currently sucks (esp. the pre-college level) and it shows in our society, and part of it is culture based.

Funding - why is it that after paying taxes - property, sales, building permits, inspections after same, etc - do my children bring home 3 fund raising scams per year? I don't mind the in-school book sales (come by this week!) but that is only because I like bookstores and at least *some* of it is going to the schools. Here in Fl. the lottery promised "all funds to education on top of normal funding" when it started... over the years they've removed all "normal funding".

Fix - guarantee funding per student seat count and per classroom/teacher, bonus funds are bonus funds, and if an extra $50 per student really makes a difference (only achievable with a spectacular fund raising effort) then re-allocate or generate additional funds (and lock them to school funding) as appropriate. Also, schools need to be able to hold over money from this year's budget to add to next year's budget to spend $ on bigger items (infrastructure, technology update, etc) with out penalty - currently its a "spend it or loose it next year" game.

Standards - teaching to the test is a great pedagogical method - if you have a good test. But the test "they" have isn't a good one, and "they" make it easier on a semi regular basis to increase test scores and standings. I can understand the need for different assessment for pre-middle school but from 6th or 7th grade on I (and many of my class mates) could get a low but realistic score on the SAT.

Fix - develop assessments similar to the SAT for pre-middle school students, and for middle and high school students test to the SAT.

Cultural - it seems that "the thug life" and similar "shot in a million" grand schemes are popular amongst certain cultures, especially in certain economic conditions. It is a point of pride to not learn, get educated and better yourself but rather sit and suck off the government teat, and begin "adulthood" at 18 with no salable skills, poor communication skills (and possibly a criminal record).

Fix - see Bill Cosby's thoughts (and only a few others outspoken enough) - and skin color really doesn't apply anymore... it is a great message for all.


Drunken rant over....

[syncroid]

[Racerbvd]

More money doesn't make a better teacher. The area of the state I live in has a pretty low $$ student, this is all based on a goofy formula, yet the schools are some of the best in the state, much better than areas with much higher $$ per student. Atlanta, GA is a prime example of lots of $$$ per student with very poor results.. So bad that they did this...
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-07-06-Atlanta-schools-standardized-test-cheating_n.htm

Atlanta public school exams fudged
A state probe has found that teachers and principals in dozens of Atlanta public schools doctored students' test papers — the latest scandal involving the high-stakes world of standardized testing in the nation's school systems

[onewhippedpuppy]

You can always take matters into your own hands and put your kids in a private school. In my case the public schools in Wichita are terrible (suburbs are good), so my wife and I elected to put our kids in our parish catholic school. Their academics are top notch, as are their graduation rates and percentage of kids that go on to attend college. No federal funding means they can create their own logical policy, not pander to the lowest common denominator. If your kid screws up too badly they can throw his ass out, and the teachers are still in charge of the classrooms. Best of all, because they believe that "it takes a village to raise a child", the school is paid for out of the parish tithing. Parents are asked to pay what they can.

Ultimately I didn't want the government to dictate the quality of my children's education.

[MauleM5-235]

This is actually a problem that is very simple to solve on an individual basis (put your kids in a private school), but extremely difficult to solve on a societal level.

The easy answer is how you solve it for your own child - put your kids in a private school. The downside is that it costs about the same per child as a decent car payment - this may explain why I have two kids in private school and we do not own a car built in this century.

The almost impossible issue is how to make the schools better serve everyone in society. Having been involved w/ private schools for many years and knowing the relative per student budgets of the private and public schools in this area, it is very clear that more money clearly does not equal better results.

[look 171]

Get rid of the liberals and the communists in the schools and start with parents education first. when a kid is caught smoking pot and dress like a thug, get rid of him or address the issue up front. the problem is that they can't and wouldn't. Too many stupid rules. A kid can get into a teacher's face and continue to say F you screaming from the top of his lungs and they wouldn't do a thing about it. the first thing they will found out is if the kid is special ed. If so, they can't really do much to him. Others see this, they starts to do it too. Same with the grades, its cool to be a dumb azz and fail. I blame the media for this as well.

[wdfifteen]

It's one of the unique features of American culture. Look at the disparagement of education and cultural enlightenment in popular music that celebrates being a dumb good ol' boy redneck. Even one of our presidential candidates said wanting your children to be able to go to college makes you a snob - and he got applause from his audience! You can't fix an educational system in a culture where being educated is looked down on.

"... nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"

Taken from PARF, apologies to Kang.

[onewhippedpuppy]

One word - vouchers. Make the public schools compete. I suspect after a decade of declining enrollment there would be some pretty drastic overhauls of the system. Currently the school system is essentially a monopoly - when has a monopoly ever been good for consumers?

[URY914]

Private school for my daughter. I recommend it for anyone that loves their kids and wants them to succeed in life.

[VincentVega]

vouchers

I think that sounds great for the top % but I dont see how it helps the general population or especially those at the bottom.

Sure, lots of variables and maybe most important the parents attitude towards education. However, I dont believe you can just throw $$ at this or ignore the bottom because they have bad parents.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

You'll never get the vouchers idea past the unions, much as it makes sense.

I know first-hand what it takes simply to get a charter school built and the insanely petty tactics that are employed at every turn by the teacher's union to prevent it.

They would make life a living hell for and politically ruin any politician that seriously promoted it (reference Ahhhhnold Schwartzy in KA for an example of how this can be done when they feel their gravy train is being threatened).

Private school and some home schooling will be employed at my house. No question. F the public institutions. F 'em. If I could withhold funding via my taxes to pay for their ineptitude, I'd do it immediately (and the public schools in my area are actually quite good, ranked among the highest in the country, but IMHO they still suck).

[Aggie93]

Here are a few quick thoughts. If i get time, I’ll develop a few later.

Parent Involvement
I think the biggest determinant between good schools and poor performing schools is the involvement of the parents. This is why suburban schools are considered better performing. I know both my girls (grades 5th and 7th) have a lot more homework than I ever did. Fortunately, my wife and I have time to help them with it.

Conversely, it also seems there are a lot of parents that too involved. I have a high school friend that taught in a private school (religious affiliated I think) school. He said dealing with the parents was the worse aspect of the job. Everyone thought their little Johnny was perfect and would go to battle against the teacher and the administration would not back the teacher - needs the tuition.

Out of school activities.
A lot of kids are in activities several days a week. and often these activities have a level of commitment that I never dreamed of (travel teams as an example). My oldest daughter has been in ballet for eight years now. We have made the decision that it will be just an activity and will not pursue it seriously. It is not uncommon for kids to have something every day of the week. Both my kids have something three days a week and I think that is getting close to too much.

Khan Academy (changing teaching methods)
I’m sure several of you saw the 60 Minutes segment on Khan Academy. I think a lot of good points were brought up. If you have not seen it and are interested in education, i recommend looking into it. I think the best development of using KA, is teachers can focus their efforts on the students that need help. They have the students do the background work at home (reading the chapter) and discuss it and do the problems in class. This lets the teacher teach instead of just reading to the class.

This method of teaching can be universal and help all schools, but would have a greater impact on poor performing since it would allow teachers to to help poor performing students instead of their parents doing it. Don’t get me wrong, parents’ number one priority should be their kids education, but I think we need to give up on working with ideal situations. The segment also showed the better students helping others. This did shock me and not sure how well it would transfer to other schools, but is upside to this strategy.

Teacher Unions
I do think teacher unions have been more detrimental to the overall system. It is almost impossible to fire teachers and poor teachers need to be eliminated. Not only for the kids, but for the teachers. Poor teachers can find a better fitting job where everyone would be better off.

Need to stay creative
I used to think that schools should drop some of the arts and other type of classes and focus on the reading, writing and arithmetic. I’ve changed my stance over the past few years. I think one area that the US has an advantage is we have been more creative than most other countries. I think more needs to be done on teaching how to think, how to problem solve. In college I started in the business school (finance major) and switched to liberal arts (econ major with finance minor). I think there was a significant difference between the two. The business school was more focused on teaching you stuff, whereas the liberal arts was more how to think. While in the workforce, I’ve been very disappointed the level of problem solving capabilities by most people, including the curiosity to learn.

[HardDrive]

My wife and I are not catholic (or Christians for that matter), but we send our daughter to the neighborhood Catholic school. There are lots of other non-catholics who do the same.

Its a great school, with wonderful staff. Small class sizes, low tolerance for disruptive behavior. I don't have any dreamy eyed notions about it. We pay a lot of money to be a in a self selecting group who value education and are committed to their kids.

I don't see how the public schools could ever compete with private. There is always going to be an element of kids who are simply in school to keep them off the streets until they are 18. They're not going anywhere good. Those kids don't benefit from being in the presence of achieving kids, they simply suck up all of the schools resources and the staffs time, to the detriment of those trying to work hard. If the public schools had much more rigid 'track' systems to separate the eggs, it might work better.

[KaptKaos]

@HardDrive

We sacrifice a lot to send our kids to the local Catholic school too. It's money, time, commitment, etc... In short, a lot of hard work.

Originally Posted by HardDrive

I don't see how the public schools could ever compete with private.

This statement struck me odd. The public school funding per student dwarfs our spending. Our teachers make a fraction of what the public school teachers make, particularly when you add in retirement benefits. The public schools are the NY Yankees of spending, and our little school is more like the Milwaukee Brewers.

Certainly, we have more committed parents, and more involvement. That goes with the fact that we expect a better product because we are paying for it. However, there is a lot more to this.

Certainly, there are lots of reasons the public schools should cost more. They need to take in special needs kids, and they can't really pick and choose which students they get.

Somewhere that needs to be balanced with the public schools' poor choices. They seem reluctant to expel kids except for the most egregious behaviors. You can't fire a public school teacher. It's impossible. The unions have a stranglehold on just about everything that happens within the school. There are more examples, but the public schools need to do a better job of setting their priorities. I don't think that can happen in the current climate with the unions. Its not in their interests.

[Groesbeck Hurricane]

Every district should be controlled at State level. Same choice of two or three books for every district in the state on a standard set of subjects. Every district receives the EXACT same funding per student.

State "hires" teachers, each district can select from the pool. All buildings receive funding in accordance to their age, new schools are built in accordance with replacing older schools.

Get rid of standardized testing, it does nothing. Get rid of special education. If they need it, send the student to a school designed only for the needs of special education. No special treatment.

Break the rules, get out. Oh, and no State or Federal aid for anyone who fails to complete a high school diploma or obtain a GED within one year of leaving school.

Add back art (makes people think), teach english, maths, science, PE, logic, stat, speach, ethics, and everyone learns at least one foreign language. Provide advanced classes for those who deserve and require it.

Don't like the public school system, go to private school. It is your choice not the Governments.

And I saw most private schools as jokes. Most in the area I grew up put out students who could barely perform on any specific level. I taught in one for a semester while between jobs. I had two students pass, all parents paid, so school gave ALL students straight A's. Oh, they were accredited.

I tought Algebra, Trig, Elementary Analysis, and Calculus. Yep, one student completed EA and Calc in one semester, passed and understood what she took. I helped one student pass basic maths, took him into my class so he could learn something. Did not know how to read (above about third grade level) or write but he learned how to do basic math (+-/*). I passed him, he worked hard and deserved it. Family paid so he was passed in every other course as well. Every other student rarely ever showed for class and when they did they were usually stoned.

[71 3.0 911]

I went to private catholic school nearly my entire grade school life. The education I received was head and shoulders above what my brother was exposed to in the public school system.

A good (albeit somewhat skewed) movie on our education system is "Waiting for Superman." As a whole, it was pretty eye-opening.

[flipper35]

Originally Posted by look 171

Get rid of the liberals and the communists in the schools and start with parents education first. when a kid is caught smoking pot and dress like a thug, get rid of him or address the issue up front. the problem is that they can't and wouldn't. Too many stupid rules. A kid can get into a teacher's face and continue to say F you screaming from the top of his lungs and they wouldn't do a thing about it. the first thing they will found out is if the kid is special ed. If so, they can't really do much to him. Others see this, they starts to do it too. Same with the grades, its cool to be a dumb azz and fail. I blame the media for this as well.

In my daughters class there was a child that was disruptive and is now attending another school because our superintendant thought it best for the other students that the child no longer attend there. A suspension is not unusual for drug related incedents. We have also taught our daughter to question things and verify. She will come home and say "my tacher said this and I want to know if they are right". Then we do some research and see and she has found out that teachers can make mistakes (or have an agenda) just like every one else, so while she listens she listens critically. Well, most of the time.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by VincentVega

I think that sounds great for the top % but I dont see how it helps the general population or especially those at the bottom.

Sure, lots of variables and maybe most important the parents attitude towards education. However, I dont believe you can just throw $$ at this or ignore the bottom because they have bad parents.

What?!?!? Vouchers are specifically for the poorest parents who could never dream of affording private school tuition. Anyone else can move to a better school district or put their kids in some private school. Every voucher pilot program I've ever heard of was targeted toward the poorest in the community (and vehemently opposed by the teachers' unions).

[Flieger]

Ironic that the OP's username is id10t.

I went to Catholic (My family is Catholic) K-8 school and high school. In high school we had non-Catholics there. One guy was Muslim, a couple Jews. It was no big deal. We went to mass but they did not have to participate, just sit there respectfully. In middle school it was every week. In high school it was like once a month and on holy days.

Now I am at a public university. I can say I am glad for my parent's actions during my formative years. I still hold firm to the values (not so much the religious ones) I was taught. Mostly about hard work and treating people with respect.

BTW, we were taught intelligent design. So it was evolution just with the caveat that God started the ball rolling so to speak. So there was no denying of science's explanations on how it all happened, just why.

Private school kids are still kids, however. The system is not perfect, but from what I hear the environment is much better than public schools.

[Vipergrün]

Because of ***** like this;

New York city schools want to ban 'loaded words' from tests – CNN Belief Blog - CNN.com Blogs

PC run amok. Administrators getting paid big bucks to make decisions like this. WTF.